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I’m surprised nobody has brought up Dexibell.

The Vivo S9 is certainly expensive especially with no speakers. But I think a good compromise would be the S7 Pro M. You can get that for $2500 new.

IDK what your price range is, but you might look at some vid reviews of that piano.

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Yeah this sub-forum can be summarized to "buy this Yamaha or that Kawai". Talk about a duopoly hehe.

Btw, does Dexibell use Fatar actions? I haven't heard good things about that.

Last edited by meghdad; 05/02/21 06:12 AM.

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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by Swedishboogie
Yamaha p515 feels too cheap...

The keyboard action feels cheap, or the instrument overall?

James
x

The P-515 does not ‘feel’ and/or look cheap; that is unless you’re expecting a concert grand experience for 1.5K.

Yes, you heard me, a lawn-mower can cost more than a P-515, but I wonder if any of y’all complain about how cheap that there mower feels!

Expectations, people, they need to be proportional!

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Originally Posted by meghdad
Yeah this sub-forum can be summarized to "buy this Yamaha or that Kawai". Talk about a duopoly hehe.

Btw, does Dexibell use Fatar actions? I haven't heard good things about that.

:-) I for one like to keep an open mind, because in the digital age, there are SO MANY options for us consumers. I believe the Dexibell is a smash hit in Europe and the rest of the world, but not so much here in the US. Dexibell does use Fatar actions - and I've generally read good things about the actions.

I even considered buying one just to experiment with. What didn't convince me to make the purchase were the sounds really. Admittedly, I was too immersed and well used-to Yamaha and Kawai sounds. The farthest I've ventured out to were ROland and Korg sound engines. When comparing with these, and looking at the price points - I thought that I'd be happy exploring the brands I am used to.

In the end, I became the opposite of an open minded guy - closed, narrow mind :-) In my defense, I did give Dexibell serious thought, and I even contacted @PianoManChuck (who is a member here) for a quote, which he was very kind to provide.

In summary, I have read nothing significantly negative about Dexibell.


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Dexibell lists their key actions in the specifications in "plain English" i.e. in actual Fatar model names -- unlike some other manufacturers.

The stage pianos with speakers have the TP/100 due to weight and/or space.

There's also TP/40 and TP-400 W.

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I don't know what action goes into a Dexibell ...
Originally Posted by mmathew
Does Dexibell use Fatar actions? I haven't heard good things about that.
I've never seen a Dexibell, and I don't think I've ever tried any keyboard having a Fatar action.
But the latter was universally panned here over a span of many years.

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Let me guess, the Dexibell uses 1,000 layers per key, and the samples are so long that one can hold a key/note for ten minutes straight without hearing any looping?

Still, it uses a Fatar action, and no, it’s not better than a comparable Yamaha or Kawai!

Yes, it’s true, anything less than Yamaha/Kawai doesn’t cut it for us when it comes to the ‘ultimate’ piano experience. Now, if you’re looking for added functionality, sounds, effects, and/or a screen that goes ‘full black’, there’s always Korg; which is very good as a ‘pure’ piano, too; just not as good as a Yamaha/Kawai!

It’s not the action in isolation, 1 million layers in isolation, space-age speakers, and by extension, it’s not the engine in isolation; I’m talking about the cohesive whole, and how Yamawai excel(s) at this!

IMHO!

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Originally Posted by Pete14
I’m talking about the cohesive whole, and how Yamawai excel(s) at this!
Hahahaha!

I hereby designate you Yamawai Pete, the official Yamawai representative to Piano World! grin


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What the heck is a 'layer'? Never understood it.


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
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As a recently sworn-in “Yamawai representative”, I will answer your question regarding a ‘layer’.

In a nutshell, a layer is a ‘gradient level’ that, when piled up one on top of the other, leads to multiple ‘layers’ or velocity steps. If we apply the ‘more=better’ equation this would translate into ‘better’ because there’s ‘more’ of it.

The gist of it is that more layers yield a broader dynamic range because there are ‘more’ -velocity- levels/steps piled one on top of the other to ‘choose from’. I do not fully agree with this theory, yet others swear by it. IMHO!

Conversely, less layers -theoretically- lead to a narrower dynamic range because there’s ‘less’ to choose from; hence, it does not reconcile with the “more=better” equation, nor does it explain why Einstein disowned quantum mechanics because his relative ‘math’ could not explain how a particle could be entangled at a distance with another particle!



I hope this clears things up for you,

Yamawai Pete!

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Originally Posted by meghdad
Yeah this sub-forum can be summarized to "buy this Yamaha or that Kawai". Talk about a duopoly hehe.

Btw, does Dexibell use Fatar actions? I haven't heard good things about that.

I think that the Dexibel Vivo S9 is a fantastic instrument: love the magnetic sliders and the sheer functions that board can do.

When you buy a digital, you have your own way of weighting the various attributes.
It seems to me that the main reason to choose an MP11SE over the Vivo S9 would be that you want the best action that can take a good pounding. Both are fabulous boards in their own way (different flavours of stage piano); however, what the competitors of Yamaha and Kawai lack is that top-draw piano action (a 7-9 out of 10 digital action).

Fatar actions are good compared with other non Yamaha/Kawai actions. In my view, Fatar actions have gotten a lot better than they were 10-15 years ago. The action on the Nord Piano 4 I found passable: somewhere just below the Yamaha NW–GH action. I'd place the Fatar actions in the 5-6.5/10 range: easily good enough for gigging.

If you were e.g., gigging with the board and didn't intend home/studio use for solo piano (or simply weren't after an acoustic feel), then the top-draw action might be less valuable. Then, the likes of the Dexibel models, Kurzweil, Korg (GrandStage, SV2, Kronos), Nord (Piano 4 and Stage III) all suddenly become a lot more competitive.

Imagine if a Dexibel Vivo S9, a Crumar Seven, a Viscount Legend 70 or a Korg Kronos suddenly came with a Grand Feel action!
***I know I for one would want to test such models, where previously, they weren't 'piano' enough.

The Nord Grand did feel even better than the Nord Piano 4; however, despite having a fantastic sound, I felt that the Nord Grand didn't quite feel piano like in dynamic expression.

Thus, I feel it's not just that the instrument has a good action, but how the instrument feels to play acoustic piano on: a mixture of action, and how well other aspects of the instrument complement the action.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
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Originally Posted by Pete14
As a recently sworn-in “Yamawai representative”, I will answer your question regarding a ‘layer’.

In a nutshell, a layer is a ‘gradient level’ that, when piled up one on top of the other, leads to multiple ‘layers’ or velocity steps. If we apply the ‘more=better’ equation this would translate into ‘better’ because there’s ‘more’ of it.

The gist of it is that more layers yield a broader dynamic range because there are ‘more’ -velocity- levels/steps piled one on top of the other to ‘choose from’. I do not fully agree with this theory, yet others swear by it. IMHO!

Conversely, less layers -theoretically- lead to a narrower dynamic range because there’s ‘less’ to choose from; hence, it does not reconcile with the “more=better” equation, nor does it explain why Einstein disowned quantum mechanics because his relative ‘math’ could not explain how a particle could be entangled at a distance with another particle!



I hope this clears things up for you,

Yamawai Pete!

OK - so in the VST world, if VSL are saying that they have "4000 samples per key" - while it may not directly translate to # of layers - the gist is that they have enough data to translate a key press into a near realistic tone...

## Apologies for the hijack, OP and others


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Originally Posted by mmathew
What the heck is a 'layer'? Never understood it.

Google: "velocity levels" sampling


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Originally Posted by SeaDrive
Originally Posted by Pete14
I’m talking about the cohesive whole, and how Yamawai excel(s) at this!
Hahahaha!

I hereby designate you Yamawai Pete, the official Yamawai representative to Piano World! grin

Kawai-Yami Pete sounds better.


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Originally Posted by mmathew
[quote=Pete14]As a recently sworn-in “Yamawai representative”, I will answer your question regarding a ‘layer’.

## Apologies for the hijack, OP and others

We are in danger of reigniting the debate about: does having a greater number of velocity levels make for a better piano sample?

But to sum up that debate: go play the instrument, buy the one you like, regardless of the tech specs, as there are so many aspects to sampling, that no one 'attribute' is the whole caboodle. Yes, more velocity layers is beneficial, no it's not so important that everyone plays multi-gigabyte VST's instead of buying from Yamaha or Kawai.

Last edited by Doug M.; 05/02/21 10:23 AM.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I don't know what action goes into a Dexibell ...
Originally Posted by mmathew
Does Dexibell use Fatar actions? I haven't heard good things about that.
I've never seen a Dexibell, and I don't think I've ever tried any keyboard having a Fatar action.
But the latter was universally panned here over a span of many years.

Dexibell digital pianos have Fatar actions. Fatar makes good organ and synth-style actions. Their hammer weight actions are ok, but not competitive with the better "digital" piano actions from K., R., or Y.


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There's a US$4000 Dexibell at my local store, I'll give it a try and report back...

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Also, my Korg G1 keybed was better than anything in the US$2000 that I tried, and the 80W speakers out sounded the rest...

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Okay, admittedly I’m nobody to listen to. I’ve only been screwing around with piano not quite a year and I’m still a novice in keyboard discussions, but I have been reading up/listening to reviews quite a bit over the last few months because I am in the market for a piano and was on the verge of buying an S7 and would have had they been in stock at that precise moment.

So, I’m a bit familiar with the low opinion of the Fatar keyboards. However I think the S9 should get a waiver because Dexibell works with Fatar to customize the keyboard for the S9 and it is supposed to be unlike any other Fatar keyboards.

I have never had the chance to play one, and since I am cutting my teeth on a Casio Privia PX-110 I’m sure I would be amazed at the feel of any decent keyboard. So I’m not the guy to know.

I don’t think I can say the same about the S7, which was part of the reason I backed out of buying one. That and having an S7 would just make me wish I bought an S9 instead even though I have no business spending that much money on a piano.

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Originally Posted by risusSardonicus
Okay, admittedly I’m nobody to listen to. I’ve only been screwing around with piano not quite a year and I’m still a novice in keyboard discussions, but I have been reading up/listening to reviews quite a bit over the last few months because I am in the market for a piano and was on the verge of buying an S7 and would have had they been in stock at that precise moment.

So, I’m a bit familiar with the low opinion of the Fatar keyboards. However I think the S9 should get a waiver because Dexibell works with Fatar to customize the keyboard for the S9 and it is supposed to be unlike any other Fatar keyboards.

I have never had the chance to play one, and since I am cutting my teeth on a Casio Privia PX-110 I’m sure I would be amazed at the feel of any decent keyboard. So I’m not the guy to know.

I don’t think I can say the same about the S7, which was part of the reason I backed out of buying one. That and having an S7 would just make me wish I bought an S9 instead even though I have no business spending that much money on a piano.

Hi risusSardonicus,

In order to come to a sane decision, it helps to identify both the attributes and what you really value. We can construct a list of attributes from a combination of the tech specs and ones own testing experience eg, you can add subjective attributes such as how much you like the overall playing experience etc.

Obviously the list even comparing the S9 to something like the MP7 SE is going to be long: both boards do a lot. One can group the attributes into sets and line up matching attributes.

Ideally you test the instruments so that you can give a relative score out of 10.

When you have your long list, you sit down and think hard about what you need, what you might need in future, what is nice to have, and which attributes you just don't need.

Next, you remove any attributes that you don't need, and many of the nice to haves. How? Well, you weight the importance of the attributes eg out of 10.

Action: level * weighting = score
Sound quality : level * weighting = score
Sound tone: level * weighting = score
Weight of board: level * weighting = score
Quality of core sounds: level * weighting = score
Number of sounds: level * weighting = score
User interface: level * weighting = score
User interface in live gigging conditions: level * weighting = score
Effects & Sound edit: level * weighting = score
MIDI controller abilities: level * weighting = score
Value for money: level * weighting = score
Build quality: level * weighting = score
Splits, morphing and Layering: level * weighting = score
Sample attributes: level * weighting = score
Time taken to turn on: level * weighting = score

The list can be as long as you like, but you need to reduce it to things that really matter to your needs. So if you're not gigging, maybe a heavier board is more sturdy and better than one that feels a bit light. If you are most likely to practise on headphones, maybe inbuilt speakers are unnecessary. If you are 90% of the time going to be playing acoustic piano, maybe layering 8 sounds is unimportant.

So if you consider your own values, you can create a smaller set of attributes and weight them.

Weightings....
Action = 9/10
Sound tone of acoustic piano = 7/10
Sound quality of acoustic piano = 8/10
User interface : 6/10
Number of quality core sounds = 7/10
Total Number of sounds = 3/10
Quality of harpsichord sound = 8/10

We can then score an instrument

Action = 6*9
Sound tone of acoustic piano = 8* 7
Sound quality of acoustic piano = 7*8
User interface : 5* 6
Number of quality core sounds = 8* 7
Total Number of sounds = 10*3
Quality of harpsichord sound = 7*8

This allows you to total the score, and compare two different instruments or more according to your needs and values.

Last edited by Doug M.; 05/03/21 05:14 AM.

Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
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