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Originally Posted by InspiredByKawai
I much prefer the look of these pedals compared to the current ca line up. More authentic and traditional upright acoustic feature which has been taken away and downgraded to the more typical cheaper looking digital pedal setup that elongates out of the base.

(offtopic about pedals)
If you mean the second picture from my previous post, then I would like to clarify that this is, in fact, not CS11, and, it seems, is a normal acoustic instrument. I just in a hurry found a picture with a suitable angle, and the link as if contains the name of the model:
https://zhn.fcpstrivia.pw/img/kawai-cs11-price-australia.jpeg
Soon after the post was published, I realized that this is not CS11 precisely from the pedals that you paid attention to, and the wheels. And the body itself is massive and high. But I didn't edit the message anymore, since I didn't find picture of CS11 in the same perspective, and it's not very important in this case, that part on the left side looks similar. Therefore, after I gave a link to the video.

Pedals of CS11:
[Linked Image]

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Originally Posted by InspiredByKawai
I much prefer the look of these pedals compared to the current ca line up. More authentic and traditional upright acoustic feature which has been taken away and downgraded to the more typical cheaper looking digital pedal setup that elongates out of the base.

As 9190 notes, the second image in his post was of an upright piano - A K-300, I believe, and not a digital.

Kind regards,
James
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Originally Posted by 9190
If you mean the second picture from my previous post, then I would like to clarify that this is, in fact, not CS11, and, it seems, is a normal acoustic instrument. I just in a hurry found a picture with a suitable angle...

Thank you for clarifying this point.


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Why do current high end digitals not appropriate the appearance of these pedals?

I think it looks very premium, classic and if these digital hybrids are trying to resemble acoustic uprights as closely as possible, they should really be included in the designs.

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Originally Posted by GNkyrios
what is the opinion on the changes made to Grand Feel III? did it fix the problems known for GFII? Im trying to see if its worth selling my CA78 and buy a CA79, but it has been difficult to find one, the only kawai importer stopped bringin DPs in my country.

I believe (based on talking to company reps, looking at cutaway action models, and playing them) the new design does away with the sometimes problematic slip tape issue and the spongy feeling of the keys bottoming out of the previous action. I liked the feel of the few I’ve tried that are fitted with GFIII, and I was not a big fan of GFII.


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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Originally Posted by GNkyrios
what is the opinion on the changes made to Grand Feel III? did it fix the problems known for GFII? Im trying to see if its worth selling my CA78 and buy a CA79, but it has been difficult to find one, the only kawai importer stopped bringin DPs in my country.

I believe (based on talking to company reps, looking at cutaway action models, and playing them) the new design does away with the sometimes problematic slip tape issue and the spongy feeling of the keys bottoming out of the previous action. I liked the feel of the few I’ve tried that are fitted with GFIII, and I was not a big fan of GFII.
i been reading this post to try to find reports of problems, only one so far is some squeaky sound on some keys and on the fallback, and i was thinking it may has something to do with that end part its now plastic?. Well i still have to wait some time before i can get any CA 79 around here


My piano history in about 15 months: Artesia PA88w -> Yamaha P45 -> Kawai CN 24 -> Kawai CN 37 -> Kawai CA 78
Done with: Clair de Lune - Debussy, Waltz Op. 64 no. 2 - Chopin. Looking for a new piece, kind of learning The Mandalorian theme, and practicing with Etude Op.10 no.1 - Chopin.
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Originally Posted by JanK
I ordered a CA79 rosewood on December 8th 2020 in Belgium and was quoted an expected delivery date of May 2021. It is off course possible that they are available in the US in a warehouse but then why would it take 4 weeks. Or your dealer already had it backordered, but otherwise... The difference seams rather big.
I so hope mine arrives without issues...

I'm glad to say my piano arrived last Friday, slightly earlier than expected. And the good news is it's just as good as it was in the store, no buzzing, bad keys or anything fundamentally flawed on my sample smile
I already noticed in store that the touch screen wasn't spectacular but all the comments here got me very worried... Now that I have it it confirms my impressions from the store, while it could use some improvements and if ever I find the time I intent to have a look at the source that was posted here to see if it has everything needed to make changes (I'm a software engineer by day), it's nothing I can't live with and I would choose this, even with the bugs, any time over the 'press this button and then that button or that key to do x' interface of certain other DP's.
And now, back to practice practice practice!

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Originally Posted by RickM
Originally Posted by mmathew
The issues reported thus far re: UI and software are not fixable by owners themselves. There even are some owners asking for source code so they can go ahead and fix it on their own.

A few people have mentioned source code. Kawai used GPL'd source and are obligated to make it available. It's at the link below. It includes build instructions. I don't know if it contains just the GPL'd code, or everything required to actually build something useful. Firmware, UI, or both? The build instructions finish with "After compilation has finished, get boot.img, misc.img, recovery.img, and system.img."

https://www.kawai-global.com/support/downloads/
Wow! It would be great if that GPL code is all it's needed to generate at least the "UI part" of the CA79/99 series and if the compiled img could be uploaded on your DP to test! Unfortunately I don't have a CA79/99 to try, but it would be nice if Kawai would give us some more explanations about exactly what you can do with these ".img" files...

Think about it:

"CA79/99. The first series of Kawai digital pianos with customizable open-source UI software... Make your piano really yours!"

Maybe someone could try to display on the touch panel the old textual-only UI interface + emulated physical buttons... smile

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Originally Posted by RickM
Originally Posted by mmathew
The issues reported thus far re: UI and software are not fixable by owners themselves. There even are some owners asking for source code so they can go ahead and fix it on their own.

A few people have mentioned source code. Kawai used GPL'd source and are obligated to make it available. It's at the link below. It includes build instructions. I don't know if it contains just the GPL'd code, or everything required to actually build something useful. Firmware, UI, or both? The build instructions finish with "After compilation has finished, get boot.img, misc.img, recovery.img, and system.img."

https://www.kawai-global.com/support/downloads/

I actually tried downloading that to look into it a little. I had varying degrees of success.
First off, the 3 files to download are actually one big .tar.gz archive (hence the first part being merging the 3 files together before extracting).
This is fine, but when I actually realized what was in the archive, I heard every single programming course teacher I've ever had screaming in the back of my mind "you used git for WHAT!?".

A bit of context for the non-programmers : "git" is a version-control system.
Basically it's very useful when dealing with projects (like code) because every time you make a modification to some file(s), you save it (with a "commit") and git tracks only what has changed from the previous version, meaning minimal info is stored, and you can go to any version easily by rolling back the changes.
For that reason, it's beneficial to do as many "saves" as possible, (also crucial to not store huge files in it because every change will bloat up your system).

Back to the archive : it's actually a ".git/" folder - which is where git stores the info/changes about your project, and what defines a folder as "tracked" by git.
This is the reason why the build instructions say to do "git reset --hard", you're resetting you current folder (which is empty, save for the git data) to the last saved git version.

I was actually quite hopeful when I saw this because I hoped that meant I could have a look at the way the project was developed (eg track the various changes made to files), and maybe figure out some stuff from it.

I did the reset, took about 1-2 hours because of the size (7.5 Gb) and sheer number of files (450 000+) in the system, and I was really baffled by the git history :
ONE SINGLE COMMIT.
Quote
commit d826b7354b6d10bd0b65c19d95c1bc6972943752
Author: sunlei <sunlei@huidatech.com>
Date: Tue Mar 24 11:28:47 2020 +0800

Kawai release 1.0

This means that first, there is no info on the devel - which is fine it, I get why this stuff would not be shared (much like I understand why the contents of the apk file for the LCD updates are all locked, more on that below).
More importantly, it means that for some inexplicable reason, the best way they have found to share this code is by setting up a git repository, versioning all the files together in one big commit, copying the '.git' folder, zipping it and sharing that.
Why on earth did you not simply zip the whole thing to begin with ?? Especially when there is visibly no benefit to having git there!

Anyways, passed that absurdity, it seems there is A LOT of stuff in there. Notably multiple frameworks to build system images, linux kernels and so on.
I'm really not an expert on OS development, so I'm guessing these are the base of code and drivers you use and pick from when you build your image and setup your makefiles.

I could build the "u-boot" part fine, but the other 2 gave me an error (a python2/3 incompatibility issue from what I gathered). In any case, this is a really huge pack of things to look through -which I do not have the time or skills for!

While I was at it, I thought I'd look at the update info/data and got the files for those from the website.
The system updates are .SYS files, so can't really mess with those.
The LCD/UI update is more interesting- it's an .apk file, so essentially an archive.
While the interesting contents of the archive files are password-locked, the folder and file architecture can be looked at, and I could make more sense out of it than the code above.

There's an appUI.kwm file in there (also an archive) which I believe holds most of the interface code. It's essentially a javascript app with some css and html elements.
You can e.g see there is in fact a "developper" folder with "kwmcoretests" and "touchpaneltest" subfolders, so the authors of that code did do some tests (unlike some suggestions on this thread *wink wink*)
You can also see the folders with all the images used in the interface, which I can't open due to pwd protection obviously, but with familiar names ("SK5.png", "vt_DamperResonance.jpg", etc.)

Another archive of the Apk ("Kawai-default.zip") includes all the MIDI files for the internal songs of the instrument (i could e.g see the 100 czerny etudes in the file list), as well as some apparently recycled files from older models (nothing wrong with that, I just found it interesting they are explicitely named as such : "NOCTUR26_CN370.mid", "downtown_rag_CA9700.mid", "ENTERTA1_CA9500.mid", ...)

The rest is mostly xml layout files that use an encoding my system is not familiar with.



I'm just sharing what I found by looking around. I'm in no capacity to edit/contribute to this as the OS side is too complex, and the app side locked.
My point is that while the "source code is open source", this is very different from being able to make your changes to it.


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I think the APK inside the big archive is the android PianoRemote app you can download from the PlayStore. Maybe it's the same app they use for the internal Android system of the CA79/99 series?

Anyway, from this:
Quote
commit d826b7354b6d10bd0b65c19d95c1bc6972943752
Author: sunlei <sunlei@huidatech.com>
Date: Tue Mar 24 11:28:47 2020 +0800

Kawai release 1.0
You can see "huidatech.com"... That is the website of a Chinese company that makes embedded devices for cars, GPS navigation systems, entertainment systems and similar things... So, is it possible that Kawai outsourced UI development of the CA79/99 and Novus series to a Chinese company?

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I too tried the "open source software". I also have some problems with building the 2nd and 3rd part. I'll continue to explore what KAWAI has done there but my time is severely limited as well. I'm guessing though, that there is nothing in there that has anything to do with what I could do.

I'd guess: The DP's tablet-touchscreen-thingies are running a custom Android "CAOS" and those are configured to autorun the PianoRemote.apk. They are connected to a separate controller that operates the DP (hence why you can start playing although it hasn't booted yet). Then the tablet reads the settings and the controller changes accordingly (hence why it always starts in the same intonation "Rendering", although it has been configured to start with power down settings).
The SYS-updates are rerouted to the internal controller and are his "OS". This controller is basically the entire DP and the tablet a fancy controller for the controller. The hex structure also suggests machine code inside.
The .apk is the UI side (duh). Depending on their password strength, this might be brute-forcable as it's offline attack but somewhere the password might be in plain text as the DP needs the data also. It might also be in a secure enclave inside the DP itself. After cracking, depending on the internal structure this might then need reverse engineering and 36 MB is quite something to that on...

Some additional info:
Code
KAWAI MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS MFG.CO.LTD.1503U,R&D. Electronic Musical Instruments Division
seems to be the owner of the code certificate. Maybe CAOS was outsourced but the app is developed in-house.

All just guesses though. KAWAI should also know that the longer the update takes to complete, the higher the expectations are

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Interesting last few posts. My programmer days ended in 2003, so pretty much everything flew over my head!

If you geeks were to able to successfully load the program and modify it, how would you get the modified builds back into the CA79/CA99?


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That might be the easy part, just package it like a regular update. However, it might not work if not signed by the proper certificate, and in that case good luck.
At any rate, the bits that have been discussed are the immaterial ones. The issues that have been reported point to the UI's code rather than the piano's proper. They'll be mostly things that could be done right by run of the mill developers, but either due to poor design or poor finishing were done wrong, but shouldn't be hard to fix (the screen not turning off that has been mentioned so many times - and while at first sight not a real bug, it is one in the full picture of things - is actually something with potential NOT to be solvable by software).
The difficult part is, however, the packaging of the goods. Maybe someone with time and patience to spare could do it in a weekend, maybe it can't be done at all.

I really suspect Kawai themselves may have their hands tied. Let that be a lesson not to skimp on developer teams.
As it stands, this is fantastic hardware marred by awful software. (Though if you play it turned off, you will be hard pressed to come up with any complaint.)

https://pics.onsizzle.com/we-spared-no-expense-hires-newman-as-the-only-developer-14325969.png

Last edited by entonio; 04/30/21 09:22 PM.
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Originally Posted by entonio
However, it might not work if not signed by the proper certificate, and in that case good luck.

A thought I wouldn’t want to think too far: maybe they’ve lost the private key for their certificate and now they are unable to sign. Dang I hope I’m wrong.

But yes, the certificate will be the main hurdle. I’ve read somewhere online: if you can remove the app first and then install it, Android doesn’t care, but I don’t know if it’s true, as I have never dealt with that kind of tinkering before.

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Originally Posted by fr34k
Originally Posted by entonio
However, it might not work if not signed by the proper certificate, and in that case good luck.

A thought I wouldn’t want to think too far: maybe they’ve lost the private key for their certificate and now they are unable to sign. Dang I hope I’m wrong.

But yes, the certificate will be the main hurdle. I’ve read somewhere online: if you can remove the app first and then install it, Android doesn’t care, but I don’t know if it’s true, as I have never dealt with that kind of tinkering before.
Currently I'm not in Android developing, but if you overwrite all the firmware (so: android os + installed apps), as every little Kawai UI update I suspect it does, I suppose there is no need to keep the previous certificate... Just create a new one and repackage the app with it, right?

Anyway, all the clues lead us to believe that the usual Kawai (internal) team that works on the piano engine from dozens of years is totally different from the team (probably outsourced) that works on the UI part. So, if Kawai is not anymore on good terms with the (external?) UI team, that could explain the slowness in releasing new updates (I just hope they don't think their UI is almost perfect and doesn't need updates!).

I guess the "Kawai mainboard" and the "TouchPanel UI (Android system) mainboard" communicate only by MIDI messages, so the UI system is just like a stripped-down android smartphone (but without the "phone" part) permanently connected to the internal Kawai mainboard. Follows some rough hypothetical schemas:

Code
TRADITIONAL DESIGN (CN29/CN39, CA49/59, ES520/920, etc.):
---------------------------------------------------------

                            LCD_PANEL  MIDI
                                ^      ^
                                |      |
                                v      v
                 FIRMWARE <--> [KAWAI_CPU] <--> [KAWAI_SOUND_PROCESSOR]
                                ^     ^                 ^
                                |     |                 |
                                v     v                 v
                               USB    BT             KEYBOARD
Code
NEW DESIGN (CA78/98/79/99 and Novus series):
--------------------------------------------

                            FIRMWARE  MIDI
                                ^      ^
                                |      |
.----------.                    v      v                             
|TOUCHPANEL| <-- MIDI      --> [KAWAI_CPU] <--> [KAWAI_SOUND_PROCESSOR]
|  HW/SW   |     internal        ^    ^                 ^
|(android  |     communic.       |    |                 |
| system)  |                     v    v                 v
|__________|                    USB   BT             KEYBOARD
    ^                           main
    |                           port
    v       
 second. USB 
 (used only for 
  UI updates)
(Note: the traditional design is based on a service manual of a CN27 you can find on the web. The new schema is just my guess, based on all the clues we have.)

When you update the UI firmware, you connect the pendrive to an USB secondary port, dedicated to the UI updates. When you update the system firmware (piano engine and other internal stuff) you put the pendrive into the main USB port. If you see the above schema you'll understand why.

Pros of this design:

- Kawai can outsource the UI developing without having to unveil to third parties internal secrets about their piano engines and sound generation algorithms;

- the same app can be used for the internal touch panel device and for the Android smartphones/tablets. This means less work for the UI team and great uniformity between what you get on a tablet/smartphone and what you get on your DP touch screen.

- If the UI app crashes, probably the piano will continue to work (with the settings before the crash, of course).

Cons:

- Slow boot times for the Android UI part, compared to the internal Kawai mainboard that boots in max 3 seconds (this is why you can play the piano even if the touchpanel UI is still loading... But not with your preferred settings, being they are stored in the UI part!).

- if the internal piano engine doesn't expose some internal functions via MIDI messages, the UI app cannot activate those functions (i.e.: per-key settings, save registrations and settings on the USB, etc.). I suppose some of these functions were not completely exposed when Kawai launched the CA79/99 series (for the rush to place them on the market as soon as possible, or for a precise design choice?), so the UI guys could not activate all of them in the interface.


Personally I'm not against this design from an engineer's point of view, because the traditional internal team can continue to work on improving the piano engine without having to worry about fancy graphical interfaces, while a new team can totally focus on aesthetics and usability of the new UI and developing of android smartphone/tablet apps at the same time. But all of this works well only if the 2 teams are very close, collaborative and permanent internal workers. An external company cannot guarantee you this stability. That's just my humble opinion, of course.

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I suppose the problem is whatever they did , outsource or otherwise, people don't feel they're getting their money's worth.

But outsourcing is very common in software if you don't have internal teams that can design every piece.

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Originally Posted by EinLudov
[...]But outsourcing is very common in software if you don't have internal teams that can design every piece.
While it's very common to outsource development of hardware components of a product, I don't know "how much" it is common in the industry to outsource "software developing" of important aspects of a device you produce while some other (but related) software parts are developed internally... IMHO it's a bad practice.

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When I mentioned a certificate I wasn't thinking at OS-level application validation, rather at hardware or bootloader validation. Like where you can't just install any OS you want onto your iPhone. Kawai's pianos may or may not have something akin to that. I wouldn't do it if I were a DP manufacturer, but who knows.

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Originally Posted by fr34k
Originally Posted by entonio
Originally Posted by Suki0650
Is there any way to downgrade the firmware on th CA79 to see if some issues were actually caused by the firmware upgrade?
Thanks.

Hold on there. I don't know specifics, but in general it's not guaranteed that firmware can be downgraded. Even if you download the previous version, you may end up with a bricked piano.
If this case is known to be different, my apologies.

From what I can infer, the internal memory is completely overwritten, only the noiseless seems to write only a portion. The apk, surely can be downgraded as this is a bundle. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's a fair warning. You might well be able to download the apk, but the configuration files left on your device might be in a different format. You are relying on the quality of code of the developers, the same developers code quality that is making you think that downgrading might be a good idea ...


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Originally Posted by entonio
When I mentioned a certificate I wasn't thinking at OS-level application validation, rather at hardware or bootloader validation. Like where you can't just install any OS you want onto your iPhone. Kawai's pianos may or may not have something akin to that. I wouldn't do it if I were a DP manufacturer, but who knows.

Some devices, e.g. Verifone payment terminals do validate any application certificate against an OS level certificate, so you may well not be able to replace it with your own. I've clearly no idea what Kawai does.


2021 Kawai CA99, 1896 Bechstein
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