2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
28 members (bluebilly, Colin Miles, clothearednincompo, CyberGene, euphoria, busa, Burkey, Freddo, fatar760, 5 invisible), 1,015 guests, and 475 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
PatG #3111619 04/28/21 09:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 185
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 185
You mean Rami Bar-Niv? Good recommendation. I'll be getting this one.

Thanx,

Stormbringer


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Working on Alfred's Adult AIO Book 2
1970's: Took piano lessons. 2021: This old man is giving it a 2nd go.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Feel The Power>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,119
I
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,119
Originally Posted by marklings
I have a reasonably large hand, 10th no problem, so stretching isn't too difficult. Changing hand position always gets me in trouble, always lead me to errors.
My bet is that you just need to practice position changes more in order to make it more easily and precisely. Fast arpeggios are very good for that. I don't think that hand size makes a big difference here. My hands are also big and stretched with years, I can play 11th and reach 12th at a maximum stretch, but I still feel tension and discomfort when I have to reach for a key, I always prefer position change if the tempo allows it.

PatG #3111681 04/29/21 03:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 84
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 84
One trick I learned from jazz:

If a four note chord is too much of a stretch, use an inversion. The 2nd or 3rd inversion often has the notes much closer together.

Unless you’re a perfectionist the sound is pretty much the same.

Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,826
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,826
Originally Posted by terentius
One trick I learned from jazz:

If a four note chord is too much of a stretch, use an inversion. The 2nd or 3rd inversion often has the notes much closer together.

Unless you’re a perfectionist the sound is pretty much the same.

Some chords on a Lead Sheet indicate the base note. You’re asked to play a chord in a specific order. Doing chords by changing note order is common in Jazz & Pop but not Classical notated in full. If you’re playing a chord + octave note like C-E-G-C1 you end up dropping the bottom note when an octave stretch is too much. A 7th chord like C-E-G-Bb can transpose to something like G-Bb-C-E to get the 7th note in the middle.

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,638
G

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
2000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,638
Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Originally Posted by terentius
One trick I learned from jazz:

If a four note chord is too much of a stretch, use an inversion. The 2nd or 3rd inversion often has the notes much closer together.

Unless you’re a perfectionist the sound is pretty much the same.

Some chords on a Lead Sheet indicate the base note. You’re asked to play a chord in a specific order.

To my mind, all chords on a Lead Sheet indicate a bass note. If it is not named by way of a slash chord, it is already named in the chord. To use a different bass note would change the arrangement. But, this just means this note should be the lowest note played, and so is easy to let your LH cover this without affecting any inversion you are doing with RH. Agree though, that typically you wouldn't do any of this mucking about with classical.

----

Comfortable fingering used in isolation of a chord or short phrase, may not be ideal in context of what happened prior and what happens next. That's why often, odd fingering suggestions sometimes are the only ones that will actually work in context when you get up to tempo. So, try the various suggestions, in context with a larger phrase or section you are working on, suggested.

PatG #3111880 04/29/21 02:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,774
W
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,774
Yes fingering is very difficult.

1 It has to be playable with your hand
2 It has to work at speed
3 If possible it should follow the intended phrasing, articulation, etc
4 If possible it uses long fingers on black short on white
5 if possible it uses standard fingerings (for that key)
6 Unlearning a wrong one is even harder than learning one.

and probably more.

I assume you are a beginner, so all you probably try is 1, and even for that you might not find the best choice. The teacher considers all other points that make not much sense to you and works only after some time.

Animisha's suggestion is good, try to make a fingering, let your teacher correct it and try to understand why the changes are needed.


[Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image][Linked Image]
PatG #3111897 04/29/21 02:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 308
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Jul 2018
Posts: 308
Can't be repeated enough: The Art of Fingering by Rami Bar-Niv. Tons of examples, written for all levels.

Figuring out fingering has been a major problem ever since keyboard players graduated from figured bass to standalone pieces. That is, pieces that take full advantage of the piano's ability to be both melody and accompaniment with the harmony filled in.

I have small hands especially my right hand which struggles to reach an octave. My #1 rule (only one?) is never stretch to the the point of palpable tension. I will add it helps to have a strong 4th finger. More than a few fingerings get used as compensation for a weak fourth.

From Rami Bar-Niv: there is no law that prohibits redistributing notes between the hands which at times significantly simplifies fingering/voicing/phrasing.

My teacher has large hands. I cannot use her preferred fingerings. But she teaches enough to adjust for children and, ahem, me.


Just do it. -- Nike
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,026
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,026
Originally Posted by terentius
One trick I learned from jazz:

If a four note chord is too much of a stretch, use an inversion. The 2nd or 3rd inversion often has the notes much closer together.

Unless you’re a perfectionist the sound is pretty much the same.

The first inversion of a tonic chord might substitute for a subdominant chord in a harmonic progression, propelling the melody forward. The second inversion might substitute for a dominant chord in a cadence, bringing a melodic motif to a resolution. The choice of inversion can have a significant impact on the effect of the harmonization.


Play classical repertoire from score. Improvise blues.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 943
H
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
H
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 943
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by terentius
One trick I learned from jazz:

If a four note chord is too much of a stretch, use an inversion. The 2nd or 3rd inversion often has the notes much closer together.

Unless you’re a perfectionist the sound is pretty much the same.

The first inversion of a tonic chord might substitute for a subdominant chord in a harmonic progression, propelling the melody forward. The second inversion might substitute for a dominant chord in a cadence, bringing a melodic motif to a resolution. The choice of inversion can have a significant impact on the effect of the harmonization.

Both of these comments are gems.


Only in men's imagination does every truth find an effective and undeniable existence. Imagination, not invention, is the supreme master of art as of life. -Józef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,606
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,606
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by terentius
One trick I learned from jazz:

If a four note chord is too much of a stretch, use an inversion. The 2nd or 3rd inversion often has the notes much closer together.

Unless you’re a perfectionist the sound is pretty much the same.

The first inversion of a tonic chord might substitute for a subdominant chord in a harmonic progression, propelling the melody forward. The second inversion might substitute for a dominant chord in a cadence, bringing a melodic motif to a resolution. The choice of inversion can have a significant impact on the effect of the harmonization.

Sweelinck (or anybody else who knows), is this true for three note chords as well, or only for four note chords?


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,638
G

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
2000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until July 22 2014
2000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 2,638
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
... The choice of inversion can have a significant impact on the effect of the harmonization.

Yes, and that is why you don't typically want to change it. Any inversion you do in your RH needs to follow the melody which helps determine what inversion is suitable, but so long as you maintain the bass note somewhere below this, you're not messing with the harmonization.

Yes, Animisha the order of notes for the chord never matters, but the bass note still does. But it does not need to be played anywhere in proximity to the rest of the chord. Any inversion you use in your RH becomes a root chord, so long as you play the root bass note below the inversion. Not sure if I am explaining properly, but to my mind you don't want to change the bass note or you change the harmonization, regardless of any inversion you are playing in your RH.

Greener #3112299 04/30/21 11:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,606
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,606
Originally Posted by Greener
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
... The choice of inversion can have a significant impact on the effect of the harmonization.

Yes, and that is why you don't typically want to change it. Any inversion you do in your RH needs to follow the melody which helps determine what inversion is suitable, but so long as you maintain the bass note somewhere below this, you're not messing with the harmonization.

Yes, Animisha the order of notes for the chord never matters, but the bass note still does. But it does not need to be played anywhere in proximity to the rest of the chord. Any inversion you use in your RH becomes a root chord, so long as you play the root bass note below the inversion. Not sure if I am explaining properly, but to my mind you don't want to change the bass note or you change the harmonization, regardless of any inversion you are playing in your RH.

Thank you Greener, your explanation makes total sense. cool


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
PatG #3112440 04/30/21 07:45 PM
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 133
P
PatG Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
P
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 133
I want to thank everyone for your comments, suggestions and the book suggestion. It is so nice to get so many of you responding to my question and for the time you took from your busy day to respond. I think maybe I look for fingerings that doesn’t require me to make as many hand position changes. I’ll be more mindful of that with my next piece. I am seriously considering getting The Art of Piano Fingering by Rami Var Niv. Thank you again!


Pat, short for Patricia
Kawai K-200
Started piano lessons in my retirement, January 2017
PatG #3112446 04/30/21 08:02 PM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,193
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,193
Originally Posted by PatG
I want to thank everyone for your comments, suggestions and the book suggestion. It is so nice to get so many of you responding to my question and for the time you took from your busy day to respond. I think maybe I look for fingerings that doesn’t require me to make as many hand position changes. I’ll be more mindful of that with my next piece. I am seriously considering getting The Art of Piano Fingering by Rami Var Niv. Thank you again!


It’s a really great book — but I mistyped his last name. Should be Bar Niv


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
PatG #3113086 05/03/21 03:08 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,119
I
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,119
Maybe the lucky owners of that book could share with us some ideas from it?

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,182
K
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,182
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by marklings
I have a reasonably large hand, 10th no problem, so stretching isn't too difficult. Changing hand position always gets me in trouble, always lead me to errors.
My bet is that you just need to practice position changes more in order to make it more easily and precisely. Fast arpeggios are very good for that. I don't think that hand size makes a big difference here. My hands are also big and stretched with years, I can play 11th and reach 12th at a maximum stretch, but I still feel tension and discomfort when I have to reach for a key, I always prefer position change if the tempo allows it.

I've really appreciated your focus on hand position in this thread Iaroslav. I have been far too cautious at changing hand positions, I don't trust my proprioception and as a consequence I've been stretching to reach notes so I can feel the distance from a finger already on a key I know to the next so I'm not changing my hand position as I should.

I'm finding that my proprioception for these small changes in hand positions is not as bad as I thought it was and that I do get it right most of the time. But doing this will hopefully improve my proprioception as well as also being able to play each note with a better finger choice that provides better control. Sadly of course this means rewriting of my fingering, but I feel it is right.

PatG #3113137 05/03/21 07:50 AM
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,193
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
8000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 8,193
A few ideas — over 220 pages

Fingering for scales
Technique options for playing fast octaves
Principles for fingering passages- think of notes as being a chord
Thumb under and movement of hand in playing arpeggios
Discussion of finger substitution


In general, beginner and advanced principles are included. Rami does not present ‘rules’ But principles that can be applied. He wants the reader to actually think through the fingering problem.

Last edited by dogperson; 05/03/21 07:54 AM.

"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

It's ok to be a Work In Progress
KevinM #3113609 05/04/21 04:08 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,119
I
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
I
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 2,119
Originally Posted by KevinM
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by marklings
I have a reasonably large hand, 10th no problem, so stretching isn't too difficult. Changing hand position always gets me in trouble, always lead me to errors.
My bet is that you just need to practice position changes more in order to make it more easily and precisely. Fast arpeggios are very good for that. I don't think that hand size makes a big difference here. My hands are also big and stretched with years, I can play 11th and reach 12th at a maximum stretch, but I still feel tension and discomfort when I have to reach for a key, I always prefer position change if the tempo allows it.

I've really appreciated your focus on hand position in this thread Iaroslav. I have been far too cautious at changing hand positions, I don't trust my proprioception and as a consequence I've been stretching to reach notes so I can feel the distance from a finger already on a key I know to the next so I'm not changing my hand position as I should.

I'm finding that my proprioception for these small changes in hand positions is not as bad as I thought it was and that I do get it right most of the time. But doing this will hopefully improve my proprioception as well as also being able to play each note with a better finger choice that provides better control. Sadly of course this means rewriting of my fingering, but I feel it is right.
I'm glad. I'm sure the training of the spatial feeling will be very beneficial.

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,182
K
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,182
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm glad. I'm sure the training of the spatial feeling will be very beneficial.

Sadly my spatial feeling now has returned to exactly how bad I thought it was, so much so playing that way is untenable. I will keep practising it for a while and see if it returns to the way it was when I first tried this.

Greener #3113780 05/05/21 01:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,026
S
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,026
Originally Posted by Greener
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
... The choice of inversion can have a significant impact on the effect of the harmonization.

Yes, and that is why you don't typically want to change it. Any inversion you do in your RH needs to follow the melody which helps determine what inversion is suitable, but so long as you maintain the bass note somewhere below this, you're not messing with the harmonization.

Yes, Animisha the order of notes for the chord never matters, but the bass note still does. But it does not need to be played anywhere in proximity to the rest of the chord. Any inversion you use in your RH becomes a root chord, so long as you play the root bass note below the inversion. Not sure if I am explaining properly, but to my mind you don't want to change the bass note or you change the harmonization, regardless of any inversion you are playing in your RH.

I agree.


Play classical repertoire from score. Improvise blues.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Nocturne Sounds developing new upright VI
by newer player - 06/19/21 01:50 AM
Roland fp-30X vs fp30 keybed noise level
by netcom61 - 06/19/21 01:40 AM
Scriabin and Rachmaninoff on the Yamaha S7X.
by Sonepica - 06/19/21 12:57 AM
SOS I’m Feeling Scattered
by PianogrlNW - 06/19/21 12:10 AM
Why Liszt - Polonaise No. 1 is Underrated
by Batuhan - 06/18/21 10:25 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics207,595
Posts3,105,045
Members101,852
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5