2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
65 members (c++, andrewlapp, BachToTheFuture, cfhosford, brennbaer, BlakeOR, Carey, 16 invisible), 659 guests, and 493 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 121 of 142 1 2 119 120 121 122 123 141 142
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 94
R
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
R
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 94
Sounds good. Thanks. Yes, I'd only consider the new x versions of the Rolands now (30x, 60x, 90x); no question about that. I'm a fan of Stu Harrison's reviews and he goes into great detail about the improvements in these upgrades.


Kawai CA79 (arrived Nov 28, 2020), Roland EP7-II (1993)
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 106
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 106
MagicPiano wrote:
“Moral of the story: never buy a digital piano without hearing it first how it sounds”

Amen to that! You can read a multitude of reviews, listen to various recordings, watch a variety of YouTube vids, but you never know if a DP is the one for you until you actually play it.

Of course that can be difficult depending where you live, but they are VERY wise words to live by.

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 85
R
Full Member
Online Content
Full Member
R
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 85
I may not get an answer since it seems a huge number here do not use the internal native speakers for sound, either using headphones or third party software,
but I was wondering if I am the only one who finds the SK-EX Rendering worse than the SK5.

I can't seem to decide if its my ears, my playing or the piano the cause.

Ron

Would one be better suited for different type of playing?

Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 8
R
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by ronlefebvre
I may not get an answer since it seems a huge number here do not use the internal native speakers for sound, either using headphones or third party software,
but I was wondering if I am the only one who finds the SK-EX Rendering worse than the SK5.

I can't seem to decide if its my ears, my playing or the piano the cause.

Ron

Would one be better suited for different type of playing?

I agree. Personally, I love the character of the SK-EX rendering, itself. But, the unevenness in loudness and tone between neighboring octaves makes it less than inspiring for me to play. The C4 octave is too soft and muted, while the C5 octave is too shrill and loud in comparison. It leads to having to make adjustments while playing that are unnatural to me. I don’t have this problem with the other piano voices. And the problem all but disappears when the volume is at 1/3 or lower. Unfortunately, that threshold is too low for me to use when playing in the room it sits in.

External speakers are not an option for me. I bought this piano wanting to escape the need for monitor speakers like I had with my last stage piano. To me, the sound emanating from behind and below the keyboard is part of the acoustic experience. Same thing for headphones. Since most of my playing is for accompaniment when I sing. I want the sound to happen in front of me for better intonation.

I think that the SK-EX rendering needs some algorithmic adjustments. To my ears, it sounds like the engineers tailored and adjusted the resonance to a sonic “dead room”, and the rendering takes a bad turn in some rooms that are sonically more ”alive”.

It’s a shame, because the rest of the piano is magical for me...I love every thing about it. And, I feel that my issues could be mitigated with the per key volume adjustments that have been promised on these boards for upwards of a year.

Still waiting.

Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 614
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by RainfrogDan
I think that the SK-EX rendering needs some algorithmic adjustments. To my ears, it sounds like the engineers tailored and adjusted the resonance to a sonic “dead room”, and the rendering takes a bad turn in some rooms that are sonically more ”alive”.

Isn't this something you can tweak using one of or a combination of virtual technician tools and equalizer, if not using one of the many presets? I mean, both the hardware and sound engineers can only design to a neutral, soundproof environment (I presume that's what you meant by dead room.) And I believe it's important and necessary they do that to preserve the tonal characteristics that make up the SK-EX engine's core.

If you don't want to experiment much with VT parameters, there are many different VT presets which you could try? Applying different EQ settings on top of those would give more possible combinations as well. You can also edit individual notes AFAIK.

Cheers and happy experimenting!


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
G. K. Chesterton
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 8
R
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
R
Joined: Feb 2021
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by RainfrogDan
I think that the SK-EX rendering needs some algorithmic adjustments. To my ears, it sounds like the engineers tailored and adjusted the resonance to a sonic “dead room”, and the rendering takes a bad turn in some rooms that are sonically more ”alive”.

Isn't this something you can tweak using one of or a combination of virtual technician tools and equalizer, if not using one of the many presets? I mean, both the hardware and sound engineers can only design to a neutral, soundproof environment (I presume that's what you meant by dead room.) And I believe it's important and necessary they do that to preserve the tonal characteristics that make up the SK-EX engine's core.

If you don't want to experiment much with VT parameters, there are many different VT presets which you could try? Applying different EQ settings on top of those would give more possible combinations as well. You can also edit individual notes AFAIK.

Cheers and happy experimenting!

Yes...I agree with you about the dead room as a starting point. But sound is a funny thing, and some frequencies can run away from you depending on the characteristics of a room. I’ve mixed and mastered a lot of tracks over the years, and those upper frequencies are just wrong to my ears. I can’t decide if it’s something in the aliquot resonance, or just being too loud compared to the lower octaves, or room ringing...dunno.

I’ve tried EQ alone without much success - even tried ringing out the room with a spectrum analyzer. But that’s an interesting idea you propose about altering the VT settings and EQ at the same time. I have not tried that...but definitely will now. I have explored a lot of VT settings - so far haven’t found a winner by itself. But, mixing the two sounds promising. Thanks for the idea!

Apparently, the software/firmware on earlier models had the capabilities to edit individual notes. Sadly, that is gone on the CA79.

Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18
A
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
A
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18
So which part of the software is exactly a dealbreaker for people? The settings not saving?

Also, didn't people send a letter to Kawai? What was their response?

Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 171
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 171
I am no further in my issues with the sound of my CA79.
Disappointed is an understatement. I was advised to contact my dealer to have sounds investigated.
They requested I make a recording and email to them but despite making several follow up emails and telephone calls I have had not one jot of response.
Not sure what to do now and I am reluctant to disclose who they are at this point.

Should I return this instrument to them and demand my money back?
Take them to court for mis selling?
Complain to Kawai UK directly?
Just sell the instrument on and go to another make/model?

I can well imagine that the letter mentioned above to Kawai directly will fall on deaf ears and no response will happen. Sorry to be negative over this but seen this thing too many times over the years. Bet Yamaha are laughing about this too.

Andy


No good but carry on regardless
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 614
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 614
My basic use case

- Switch on Piano
- Experiment with settings
------ switching between different piano sounds and settings resets the previous. if you want to go back to the last sound you edited, you have to remember what you changed and start over again
- Find a setting that makes you happy
------ some minor issues with saving settings, like no option to override a saved setting, no caps allowed etc. etc.
- Find a way to start up the piano with your preferred setting
------ no direct option
------ a workaround exists, where you can start the piano with default at Piano tab and current settings
- Experiment, rather explore more beautiful sounds the piano has to offer, but still limited by the way the UI is implemented, that I start dreading the exploration process itself
- The workaround to start the piano with last settings doesn't work, when the piano automatically powers off. Works only when the piano is manually powered off
- In summary, I couldn't always be sure what sound setting the piano really is in. Many sounds and sound settings have subtle variations - unless I can rely on the piano that it would keep the saved settings, in memory or transient (as the design should allow), the DP doesn't work for me.

To each, their own, of course. I'm sure there are many users who are happy with one sound setting + the workaround. For me, the software simply was like a wall that prevented me from having a relationship with this instrument, the way I would with DPs.

And, from a major piano manufacturer, I don't expect even silly issues like the below. I simply can't ignore this. No mass produced premium product has issues like this, however silly it might look like.

[Linked Image]

It tells me the UI is poorly tested, to say the least. When I buy from Kawai, I simply expect the best. Not perfection (although my heart expects it) - but the best. The CA79 isn't.


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
G. K. Chesterton
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 171
K
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
K
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 171
MMathew - what would happen if we all simply sent our instruments back to our dealers and demanded our money back en-block? As it appears that most of us on here are beginning to think that these CA's are not fit for purpose


No good but carry on regardless
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 12
S
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
S
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by RainfrogDan
Originally Posted by ronlefebvre
I may not get an answer since it seems a huge number here do not use the internal native speakers for sound, either using headphones or third party software,
but I was wondering if I am the only one who finds the SK-EX Rendering worse than the SK5.

I can't seem to decide if its my ears, my playing or the piano the cause.

Ron

Would one be better suited for different type of playing?

I agree. Personally, I love the character of the SK-EX rendering, itself. But, the unevenness in loudness and tone between neighboring octaves makes it less than inspiring for me to play. The C4 octave is too soft and muted, while the C5 octave is too shrill and loud in comparison. It leads to having to make adjustments while playing that are unnatural to me. I don’t have this problem with the other piano voices. And the problem all but disappears when the volume is at 1/3 or lower. Unfortunately, that threshold is too low for me to use when playing in the room it sits in.

External speakers are not an option for me. I bought this piano wanting to escape the need for monitor speakers like I had with my last stage piano. To me, the sound emanating from behind and below the keyboard is part of the acoustic experience. Same thing for headphones. Since most of my playing is for accompaniment when I sing. I want the sound to happen in front of me for better intonation.

I think that the SK-EX rendering needs some algorithmic adjustments. To my ears, it sounds like the engineers tailored and adjusted the resonance to a sonic “dead room”, and the rendering takes a bad turn in some rooms that are sonically more ”alive”.

It’s a shame, because the rest of the piano is magical for me...I love every thing about it. And, I feel that my issues could be mitigated with the per key volume adjustments that have been promised on these boards for upwards of a year.

Still waiting.

I have also noticed the shrill resonance when playing some notes, especially C5. I also note a real buzz to the E3 sound. I also feel that there is difference in the volume between octaves as was mentioned. These are only noticed in the SK-EX rendering. I have basically given up and play the DP in non-rendered concert mode. So frustrating. The keyboard action is what really drew me to the CA79, but even with that I have the dreaded clicking noise on a number of the keys in the middle of the keyboard.

Here is link to an .mp4 file on WeTransfer that I recorded on USB. It sounds exactly the same through the headphones when I recorded the sounds. Shrill C5 and E3 Buzz

Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 544
E
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 544
Originally Posted by Killomiter
MMathew - what would happen if we all simply sent our instruments back to our dealers and demanded our money back en-block? As it appears that most of us on here are beginning to think that these CA's are not fit for purpose

Please don't do this, it would be really expensive for kawai, and the piano industry is hurting as it is.

While I think they are greedy to charge the prices they do, they don't deserve that kind of response because this is a fixable problem.

A sudden run on the bank is always more trouble for everyone involved.

Last edited by EinLudov; 04/21/21 10:19 AM.
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 48
E
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
E
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 48
I don't understand why they're hurting if by all accounts there was a rush to DPs and they're even in back order across brands.

It would certainly be a good lesson to them, that it's not wise to ignore the unhappiness of customers. The thing is that their current behaviour is unexplainable. They don't communicate and they don't fix the issues and that's... dishonourable.

Of course you are probably right that it would achieve nothing. Except of course for the unhappy customers, who could have a new chance with a new piano from a competitor.

I work in software development. I know they've had time to fix those issues three times over. Have they outsourced the software in such a way that they've completely lost control of the process?

I wish Kawai all the best and intend to buy from them in the future. But I can't recommend them to anyone right now.

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 918
M
mwf Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 918
Originally Posted by Killomiter
I am no further in my issues with the sound of my CA79.
Disappointed is an understatement. I was advised to contact my dealer to have sounds investigated.
They requested I make a recording and email to them but despite making several follow up emails and telephone calls I have had not one jot of response.
Not sure what to do now and I am reluctant to disclose who they are at this point.

Should I return this instrument to them and demand my money back?
Take them to court for mis selling?
Complain to Kawai UK directly?
Just sell the instrument on and go to another make/model?

I can well imagine that the letter mentioned above to Kawai directly will fall on deaf ears and no response will happen. Sorry to be negative over this but seen this thing too many times over the years. Bet Yamaha are laughing about this too.

Andy

You've read my posts hopefully? You should know how awful Kawai UK are by now, they ignore you deliberately and don't want to fix anything anyway.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,666
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,666
Originally Posted by Suki0650
I have also noticed the shrill resonance when playing some notes, especially C5. I also note a real buzz to the E3 sound. I also feel that there is difference in the volume between octaves as was mentioned. These are only noticed in the SK-EX rendering. I have basically given up and play the DP in non-rendered concert mode. So frustrating. The keyboard action is what really drew me to the CA79, but even with that I have the dreaded clicking noise on a number of the keys in the middle of the keyboard.

Here is link to an .mp4 file on WeTransfer that I recorded on USB. It sounds exactly the same through the headphones when I recorded the sounds. Shrill C5 and E3 Buzz
That "buzz" you hear in the C5 note is something you get from an acoustic piano too. I think it's the modeling of the undamped strings that resonate in sympathy with the notes you are playing, and for certain notes you hear these high frequencies more than in others.

About the buzzing on E3 that's normal when you have a piano engine with looped samples. Some frequencies behave in a slightly unnatural way because the sample is not long enough to allow for fine details... And consider that the original piano samples were heavily edited in post-processing to smooth the transition between the attack and the looped part (and to smooth the transition between velocity layers). This is the reason why I think that piano samples in the lower octaves should be at least 10 seconds long (before the looped part) to sound more similar to the quality of the best piano VSTs.

Anyway, I think there is nothing wrong in playing in Sound mode if you don't like the added resonances in SK-EX Rendering mode. Personally I play almost only with an EX-based piano patch. What's wrong with that? wink

Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 614
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 614
Originally Posted by magicpiano
I think it's the modeling of the undamped strings that resonate in sympathy with the notes you are playing, and for certain notes you hear these high frequencies more than in others.

aka Aliquot Resonance, Duplex Scale on the higher registers.


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
G. K. Chesterton
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,425
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,425
Hello Suki0650,

Originally Posted by Suki0650
These are only noticed in the SK-EX rendering.

The SK-EX Rendering sound engine has a more advanced resonance system, and reproduces more of the resonances heard in an acoustic piano.

Some players appreciate this extra authenticity, however if you do not enjoy the sound, I would suggest reducing the "Resonance Depth" Virtual Technician parameter. If you are still find the sound to be disagreeable, selecting the "Concert" SK-EX variation will revert to the previous generation Harmonic Imaging XL sound engine, which has a less complex resonance system.

Originally Posted by Suki0650
The keyboard action is what really drew me to the CA79, but even with that I have the dreaded clicking noise on a number of the keys in the middle of the keyboard.

I recall that you were waiting for your dealer to send a technician to check this matter. Presumably this has not happened yet?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,425
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 17,425
Hello Andy,

Originally Posted by Killomiter
I was advised to contact my dealer to have sounds investigated.
They requested I make a recording and email to them but despite making several follow up emails and telephone calls I have had not one jot of response.
Not sure what to do now and I am reluctant to disclose who they are at this point.
...
[should I] Complain to Kawai UK directly?

If you are not satisfied with the level of support provided by the dealer, it is probably best to contact Kawai UK for assistance.
Please send me a message if you require any help in this matter.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,066
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 9,066
Originally Posted by mwf
Originally Posted by Killomiter
I am no further in my issues with the sound of my CA79.
Disappointed is an understatement. I was advised to contact my dealer to have sounds investigated.
They requested I make a recording and email to them but despite making several follow up emails and telephone calls I have had not one jot of response.
Not sure what to do now and I am reluctant to disclose who they are at this point.

Should I return this instrument to them and demand my money back?
Take them to court for mis selling?
Complain to Kawai UK directly?
Just sell the instrument on and go to another make/model?

I can well imagine that the letter mentioned above to Kawai directly will fall on deaf ears and no response will happen. Sorry to be negative over this but seen this thing too many times over the years. Bet Yamaha are laughing about this too.

Andy

You've read my posts hopefully? You should know how awful Kawai UK are by now, they ignore you deliberately and don't want to fix anything anyway.

I had that trouble in year 2001 . . . .Quite a thing to see consistency these days!

Last edited by peterws; 04/22/21 01:33 AM.

"I am not a man. I am a free number"

"[Linked Image]"
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 1
C
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
C
Joined: Apr 2021
Posts: 1
Hi folks, I'm new to the forum and wanted to share my experience of the CA79 so far.

I took delivery in early January and have logged about 400 hours of playing since then. This instrument replaced my Kawai CN270 (which is still going and in good working order!) mainly because I prefer the tone of Kawai pianos to that of Yamaha or Roland.

The good news is I'm really pleased with the action, feel and overall sound of the piano and fortunately haven't encountered any faults as yet. However, I find the touch screen interface so fiddly and poorly designed that I don't even bother using it.

I just have the piano on the default settings with volume about half way and fortunately that seems to work well for my needs. The only thing I would add is the lower octaves can sound a bit too strong/bassy and the very high notes could have more brightness/shrill to them.

Page 121 of 142 1 2 119 120 121 122 123 141 142

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Question about upright piano placement
by Nicolas J. - 06/23/21 01:38 PM
The most entertaining encore I've ever seen
by pianoloverus - 06/23/21 01:38 PM
Lower Pianoteq power consumption
by meghdad - 06/23/21 11:18 AM
Opinion on Sherlock and Manning 13657
by JKyser - 06/23/21 09:39 AM
What a great book!
by Ubu - 06/23/21 09:03 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics207,669
Posts3,106,614
Members101,889
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5