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I’m blocking out Pierrette by Chaminade. (IDK, I’ve always called it blocking... looking for duplicate measures, adding fingerings, notating tricky timing, etc.)

8 measures prior to the end there’s a run of 16th triplets with a quick run of 32nds. I can’t decide if it’s the copy I have but it appears this measure has an extra half beat.

Is there something written wrong in my edition or is this correct? Or have I gone mad & lost my ability to count? It’s the only measure in the entire piece with an extra half beat so I am suspicious. The piece also does not start with a partial measure. Can someone check it against a different edition if I’m reading this correctly?

I have it as:
16th triplet 16th triplet 16th triplet 16th triplet 32nd 32nd 32nd 32nd

Here’s the link:

Pierrette Sheet Music

Last edited by merplayer; 04/20/21 12:24 PM. Reason: Problem with html link.
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Here is the measure in question, with the preceding measure, for good measure, as it were.

[Linked Image]

I agree that the notation adds up to one half beat more than the time signature of 2/4. Does anyone else see it any differently?

Regards,


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Looks to me like you're right!

....although with some doubt about whether I'm seeing all those note values right.

I think that except for those last 4 notes, everything else is triplet-16th's.
If so, then those last 4 notes are an extra half beat.

It wouldn't bother me at all in terms of how to play it -- it's kind of a "free" thing, like a little riff -- and I'd think of those extra 4 notes as sort of a rubato-fermata-ish-embellishment, just stretching out the measure a little.

But yeah, I'd wonder just like you are, and spend some time trying to really see what those notes are (probably with a magnifier, maybe a microscope) ha .....and I'd probably ask some people about it, not just to make sure I'm seeing it right but also just because it's an interesting thing to show.

And it is!

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Thanks Bruce! For some reason I have problems posting pics in Safari.

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For me it is just that the composer should have indicated a change of meter but did not. I would see that as a form of rubato with a slow down which creates a transition to the final closing sequence.

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Originally Posted by Mark_C
... I'd wonder just like you are, and spend some time trying to really see what those notes are (probably with a magnifier, maybe a microscope) ha .....and I'd probably ask some people about it, not just to make sure I'm seeing it right but also just because it's an interesting thing to show.

And it is!

I purchased a copy of Chaminade playing it herself, and even though I thankfully am reading it properly, it does seem as though the triplets in this measure start the same but the 8th run of triplets speeds up into the 32nd. It took a few times of listening through but I don’t fall off beat at all for the start of the measure after it, so it’s squishing that 2.5 into the same time as 2 beats.

It was probably the cleanest way she was able to write this ornament that doesn’t quite fit into 2/4 time.

I did magnify it in the pdf version to see. It’s not exactly the cleanest copy of music.

Glad to know I still have all my marbles.

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Originally Posted by Sidokar
For me it is just that the composer should have indicated a change of meter but did not. I would see that as a form of rubato with a slow down which creates a transition to the final closing sequence.

That would be a good interpretation that I would much rather play. It sounds like on a digitized gramophone recording I purchased just now, she speeds it up to fit in the space of time of the prior measure.

I wonder if this is how she wrote it when she composed it or if this was the doing of an arrangement.

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I happen to have two different editions of that piece. There are three flags on each note of the final triplet in both editions, and four for the final four notes in one of them. Either way, the last 7 notes are much faster than the preceding triplets.

It looks like this passage is the end of a cadenza, so some liberties are to be expected.


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At least she left the barlines in.

Some composers, when they go off into flights of fancy, didn't even bother with them - like CPE Bach...... wink


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the editor should have written those last 4 semedemihemi whatever quavers in small print, end of problem.


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Originally Posted by dolce sfogato
the editor should have written those last 4 semedemihemi whatever quavers in small print, end of problem.

I don't think so -- that would have made those notes into a different kind of thing than I think she intended.
(would have made them sort of subsidiary, less prominent than the other notes....)

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The two editions I have are White Smith Music Publishing, copyright 1898, and Schirmer, copyright 1892. The latter has the extra flag, but the intention is clear in both cases, that those 7 notes are the last half-beat of the measure (in 2/4 time).


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it's just a chromatic run upwards, to be in time for the next bar, nothing outlandish here.


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Oh, and don't even start to scrutinize Liszt on this haha


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BTW, I'm pretty sure that in Op. 110, there's at least one measure (in the recitativo-ish parts) where there's a few more notes/beats than there's supposed to be.

And, if you're a Seymour Bernstein fan (and really y'all should be!) smile smile there's a spot in "Guernica" (from "New Pictures at an Exhibition") where there's half-a-beat too many -- which was just due to a printing error.
He said nobody had ever noticed it before (including him).

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Originally Posted by merplayer
That would be a good interpretation that I would much rather play. It sounds like on a digitized gramophone recording I purchased just now, she speeds it up to fit in the space of time of the prior measure.

I wonder if this is how she wrote it when she composed it or if this was the doing of an arrangement.

I think how fast you choose to play it is a matter of interpretation. You can keep the same note value or speed up or apply rubato ..... there are plenty of choices based on how you see the phrasing of that bar. From a modern notation perspective though, irrespective of tempo, the notation is strictly speaking incorrect since you cant suddenly put 5 8th in a bar which is supposed to have only 4 per the meter. You can change the meter (and or the tempo), you can also decide to put a bar or a section without meter if that is suitable, but you cant break the meter without mentionning it (i guess the composer can do what she wants,....).

No big deal though !

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opus 111


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Originally Posted by Sidokar
I think how fast you choose to play it is a matter of interpretation. You can keep the same note value or speed up or apply rubato ..... there are plenty of choices based on how you see the phrasing of that bar.

After messing with it, letting it fly at the end is a lot of fun, sounds fun, and easier (relatively speaking) than I anticipated. Falls right under 2 hands beautiful.

Originally Posted by BDB
I happen to have two different editions of that piece. There are three flags on each note of the final triplet in both editions, and four for the final four notes in one of them. Either way, the last 7 notes are much faster than the preceding triplets.

I totally changed it to this on my copy, with the final 4 as “semidemihemi quaver whosiwhatsits”, which maybe should be the technical term for 64ths. Thanks! Matches what I hear played much better. Even if other composers take liberties at times, I suspect this is an editorial flub.

Obvs, this isn’t something I have encountered before, but it sounds like it’s out there when dealing with some composers, which is good to know.

Thanks ALL!

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This is why you should have at least a couple of editions of every piece of music ever written. (As well as 2 or 3 pianos.)


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