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Originally Posted by magicpiano
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.

You can still feel the letoff when playing fast, it's like a light rubber band snapping at the end of the key. Without the letoff, it feels a bit like a sponge.

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Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]What I noticed when playing say Fantasie Impromptu, was that I felt the counterweight of the Rh3 made me able to better time the playing of the keys and has what is probably called counterweights (what I described as a constant resistance (not to be a french rebel) when pressing down a key), whereas with the GHS which is somewhat lighter, it might be harder to keep up with the rhythm / timing of each keystroke. It is doable but it requires more of a delicate controle of the keys to time the strokes perfectly.
I'm not into physics but I think the counterweights in the keys are useful when a keyboard action uses heavier hammers (compared to those in the low-range hammer actions like the Yamaha GHS or the Kawai RHC). With heavier hammers you need more force to get a fortissimo sound (so, you feel somehow you have more fine control on dynamics in the upper range of velocities -- assuming the piano engine is good enough) but this heaviness would make you feel much fatigue when playing in the ppp/pp range. So a counterweight is required to make a key feel less heavy when you depress it slowly, and easier to keep it depressed.
I think a side-effect of the counterweight is the slightly increased "rebound" when a key is released and returns to its upper position.

Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.

Yes I agree that perhaps mostly an advanced player will appreciate it but as said the GHS works really well and it is just a feeling when things go fast that due to the less weighted keys one might realise that having a bit more heaviness might make one able to better time it, but as you said it might require some more finger strength. Once it is there one will appreciate the ability to controle and time the keystrokes.

The place I noticed it was when I had to go back and forth between adjacent notes, so also the technique and kinds of fingers used has a big impact on this.

So in reality this phenomenon (feeling out of controle or that some notes don't seem so distinct and separate) is not often a matter with the Yamaha GHS, but I noticed it with certain passages like at the start of fantasie impromptu when you play d major, c major, d major then c major again.
As said it may highly owe to the use of adjacent fingers. Thus when I make thrills I prefer to use the second and fourth finger.
But I make up for the slight lack of momentum by emphatising every single note by emphatising the finger movements.

Last edited by Djengis; 04/15/21 12:38 PM.
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Darn, again this time limit.

Let me say that GHS is by no means unweighted and I only encountered named issue in certain situations. Generally I can play fast and emotional virtuose passages with ease on the DGX. And the advantage is you don't tire though playing for an extended period of time.

The advantages of the DGX far "outweigh" (😉) the small points of challenge.

I think that being spoiled might be a disadvantage if one suddenly has to play on a less weighted keybed. I think in terms of training and improving, GHS might be better and especially for not heavy fingers or less strong hands.

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Originally Posted by Djengis
So in reality this phenomenon (feeling out of controle or that some notes don't seem so distinct and separate) is not often a matter with the Yamaha GHS, but I noticed it with certain passages like at the start of fantasie impromptu when you play d major, c major, d major then c major again.
As said it may highly owe to the use of adjacent fingers. Thus when I make thrills I prefer to use the second and fourth finger.
But I make up for the slight lack of momentum by emphatising every single note by emphatising the finger movements.

My own experience was mixed. The black keys were a tad fat, as were my fingers to play between them. It was a case of "Don't go there!" but now and again you have to. The much vaunted "Fantasie" became "Distopian" whrn you encounter those quad notes towards the end of the first page. For that reason (it was the only part I couldn't play; the rest I could, but badly).I changed my piano.
I still couldn't manage these, and I tend to do other things now (non-piano) instead.
But who knows? maybe one day . . . .
Playing different numbers of notes in the right and left hands is mental anyway!


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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Djengis
I never had this problem with the DGXes which I hooked up with PAs before, but of course I don't like unexpected problems. What I heard is that the headphone outlet works basically as a line out.

I think it is quite surprising that a good arranger keyboard with weighted keys hasn't come into light before now.

I can't see why there is this separation of arranger players from virtuose pianists. It is like either yiu are a pianist and then the arrangee territory is forbidden territory, or you like weighted keys but cannot have the fun side too.

Is this not just a discriminating fractioning of the market (not meant as a mee too statement)?

Yep. It hadn't had come to light before ... until you discovered this miracle of Yamaha.

You can also play Casio's SA-21 on the stage. Nothing is wrong with doing it.
I wonder what you hope to obtain with this (quoting you) middle East kind of humour: Seems rather personal to me.

Ask Jesus regarding any bitterness and that shall set you free.
But perhaps it is just your way, and I don't want to take it personal. We all have our ways.
Perhaps I can view it as a test of not taking unbefriended peoples Words more serious than God who loves me.

Enough with this melancholy (which only to me is beneficial to my music but not my health).

Abdol, I think DGX is a splendid piano and I am like a faithful junkie towards Yamaha: Apart from the MOXF8 which brought me to frustation due to feeling dissociated between loving it and hating its user interface.

I don't believe in quarreling over diverse opinions. I once learned that we should make peace, for example with our beloved ones (family etc) before going to sleep /before the sun goes down. I intend to honour this wisdom/ honour God.

Last edited by Djengis; 04/15/21 01:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Djengis
So in reality this phenomenon (feeling out of controle or that some notes don't seem so distinct and separate) is not often a matter with the Yamaha GHS, but I noticed it with certain passages like at the start of fantasie impromptu when you play d major, c major, d major then c major again.
As said it may highly owe to the use of adjacent fingers. Thus when I make thrills I prefer to use the second and fourth finger.
But I make up for the slight lack of momentum by emphatising every single note by emphatising the finger movements.

My own experience was mixed. The black keys were a tad fat, as were my fingers to play between them. It was a case of "Don't go there!" but now and again you have to. The much vaunted "Fantasie" became "Distopian" whrn you encounter those quad notes towards the end of the first page. For that reason (it was the only part I couldn't play; the rest I could, but badly).I changed my piano.
I still couldn't manage these, and I tend to do other things now (non-piano) instead.
But who knows? maybe one day . . . .
Playing different numbers of notes in the right and left hands is mental anyway!

Haha. Don't get what you mean about the black keys being fat. Well the quad notes are everywhere even at the start. There only is a pause exchanged for the first right hand one.
Also either watch videos by a good teacher or have one, to know how to play it. Once you know how to have the four tones inthe right and 3 in the left, the rest is just rehearsing.

I think don't give up if you love playing. Rather make yourself comfortable. Perhaps the MP7 se will help you with those quads. I love the Kawai keybed and my son favors the sound over the Yamaha, even through the Presonus which don't justify the true sound (and I was do happy about them but perhaps it is simply a mismatch for some reason since they generally are splendid.

Did you play the MP7 se? I just wanted to prefer the yamaha due to me wanting the whole shebang (mic and ease of recording straight away).

I keep on dreaming about the mp7se and Dgx 670 making a love child.

Last edited by Djengis; 04/15/21 02:02 PM.
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Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by magicpiano
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.

You can still feel the letoff when playing fast, it's like a light rubber band snapping at the end of the key. Without the letoff, it feels a bit like a sponge.
As I said before, I'm not able to feel the small resistance of the (fake) let-off on my RHIII action when I'm playing a fast trill or a fast repeating note or a fast scale. I have to play very slowly to feel it.

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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
It does function as a line out. Output level is low compared to +4dBu pro line level that a PA expects. The question becomes whether you can get enough volume to fill a performance space without driving the gain of the headphone output stage to the point of distortion or clipping. The answer is that it will vary with the power and efficiency of the PA. Here is some info:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/headphone-outputs-used-line-outputs-for-line-level-gear/

I used one myself at a wedding; it sounded good the waitress said. Better than the Bluthner baby in the next room. You'll never get a bad sound with a Yamaha but it is heavy and not made for the road.

My own experience refutes the never in your statement. If the PA or keyboard amp is overpowered for the size space, you can use gain staging to avoid distortion and clipping. There is a reason more pro-oriented keyboards have both a headphone output and line level output.

I suppose there had to be. The recipient amplifier has a lot to do with it; they used to have high gain and lo-gain inputs. probably still do for all I know..But the Yamaha sound is always good until it's taken away from the Yamaha device from whence it came . . .or unless a non-Yamaha designated person plays it.
That ok? smile

It is a subtle point, but if the keyboard output level is too low, below the standard line level spec which the PA uses as its input sensitivity range, requiring the gain of the PA to be set too high, up in the range where the PA clips, then it is the fault of the keyboard for having too low of an output level. If the headphone output stage had to be set too high and it clips, that is another problem. And the noise level of a headphone output may be low enough not to hear it with headphones, but audible when further amplified.

PA amps and keyboard amps are not particularly high fidelity, so it is desirable for the keyboard not to force them out of their sweet spot with low output level.

The DGX keyboard I played had a different action from the DGX-670 so my comment about the action is not relevant.

I cannot find any reference in the owner's manual to a firmware feature to adjust the output level range.

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Peterws, actually the Kawai ES 920 has got the same keybed as the Mp 7se PLUS it has bluetooth. I strongly considered it but decided not to, due to few sounds. But if beautiful piano is your thing I'd probably go with that model: Only 17 kg and loudspeakers. I don't recall if it has audio over Midi though.
But with the DGX I prefer recording the audio to a thumb drive, then select and later take it to my DAW or if ok raw then that. I believe the es 920 includes the thumb drive option. Strange if not.
I don't even know if you are out for a new piano, so if not I am speaking to those who are. ☺️

Last edited by Djengis; 04/15/21 02:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by magicpiano
@Djengis:
I think the GHS is a very nice and light keyboard action.

I agree RHIII is not light at all and after some time of playing it tires your fingers, especially if you are an adult beginner and you are learning classical piano music where you have fast trills, repeated notes, octaves, big chords, passages where you have some fingers more near the fallboard, or where your hand remains in the same position and your fingers quickly alternate between bichords (1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 2-4, 1-3 and so on). I think these things are much less tiring to do on a light keyboard action like the Yamaha GHS or the Kawai RHC compared to the less cheap Yamaha NWX or the Kawai RHIII. But I guess the latters could make the transition to a real acoustic easier... Or is it just a metropolitan legend?

Anyway I don't think you should compare 2 instruments designed for different targets in mind. We are talking about a very generic multi-purpose digital piano/arranger VS a professional stage piano with 4 independent zones you can mix/split/etc... The MP7SE doesn't even have internal speakers (that's standard with professional stage equipment) and it was designed to work as a MIDI controller too.

IMHO, as a professional stage piano, the MP7SE is absolutely unrivaled in its price range. And it's sturdy and beautiful looking too.

Anyway, as a generic DP, if I look at the specs and price, the DGX-670 looks a very nice product and it has a great value for money. But if I look at its pictures I'm crying! It's very bulky, fat, ugly looking to me and just for this I would never buy it... Just a quick comparison of the looks:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

As you can notice, the first is clearly all plastic (and has a strange looking shape in the back). The other one has an elegant looking metal case.

But as I said before, they are 2 different products for different targets and use cases (and for very different aesthetic tastes!).
Yes the Mp7 se is a beauty but the DGX670 is really sturdily built. It is by no means fragile or plastic in its overall feel. Very strong bottom too. I don't think the DGX is ugly in any way. Also the sound is 1 million times more important unless the audience is only attracted to looks but not the sound.

To me the looks is completely irrelevant in a piano. Or I buy an expensive grand piano hybrid piano. But for the practical purpose of making music, I could not care less really.

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The question is surprising. If the purpose is to have a small cost 88 keys arranger, why comparing with the MP7SE ? DGX670 vs Korg Havian (or Korg XE80) would be a more pertinent question.

DGX670 vs MP7SE is like comparing a sedan car and a pickup. Ok, they have both 4 wheels... and the best depends of the use case.

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Originally Posted by Djengis
...
Ask Jesus regarding any bitterness and that shall set you free.
...
Enough with this melancholy (which only to me is beneficial to my music but not my health).
...
Abdol, I think DGX is a splendid piano and I am like a faithful junkie towards Yamaha:
...
I don't believe in quarreling over diverse opinions. I once learned that we should make peace, for example with our beloved ones (family etc) before going to sleep /before the sun goes down. I intend to honour this wisdom/ honour God.


My religion is all about dos and don'ts. So it's hard to imagine how it can help me to be free. I don't know much about Jesus though.

Anyway I see where you're coming from.


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Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]To me the looks is completely irrelevant in a piano. Or I buy an expensive grand piano hybrid piano. But for the practical purpose of making music, I could not care less really.
Of course it has to sound good, but personally, I'm very sensitive to the looks of an instrument... If I had to buy a digital piano for a recording studio or for gigging maybe the looks would have no much importance, but for something to put inside my house it has to look good too, especially when we are considering a very large instrument like a DP with 88-keys. To each his own! wink

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Originally Posted by Djengis
Peterws, actually the Kawai ES 920 has got the same keybed as the Mp 7se PLUS it has bluetooth. I strongly considered it but decided not to, due to few sounds. But if beautiful piano is your thing I'd probably go with that model: Only 17 kg and loudspeakers. I don't recall if it has audio over Midi though.
But with the DGX I prefer recording the audio to a thumb drive, then select and later take it to my DAW or if ok raw then that. I believe the es 920 includes the thumb drive option. Strange if not.
I don't even know if you are out for a new piano, so if not I am speaking to those who are. ☺️

No, I don't want a new piano. My P515 is lovely to play, suits my fingers well and Pianoteq is wonderful now. I moght try F.I. again for fun. But my fingers were never very fast, and they're a darn sight slower now!
Playing actually helps them a lot.


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Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.

When you remove the letoff, there's going to be a difference in sensation. That's going to impact perception and the timing that the player is used to. I'm not sure the let off or additional weight gives someone more control, but it may make the action more similar to what they were used to. That may induce the player to think or feel more in control even if the underlying travel and sensor read hasn't changed.
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.

If you only plan to play digital pianos, it doesn't matter so much, just choose an action that works for you. But if your primary instrument(s) to play or perform on are acoustic pianos, then translation of digital practice sessions to the acoustic instrument matters, and the closer emulation is beneficial.

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by EinLudov
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Personally, when I tried the GHS action (in a Yamaha P125) I was positively impressed by the ease with which I was able to make fast repetitions and trills without thinking too much, while on the RHIII action I have to focus more on timing and the right amount of force applied if I don't want to get some ghost note... As a beginner I think a light action like the GHS is much easier to play, but I guess an intermediate/advanced classical player would appreciate more the fine control you can get on an heavier action.

When you remove the letoff, there's going to be a difference in sensation. That's going to impact perception and the timing that the player is used to. I'm not sure the let off or additional weight gives someone more control, but it may make the action more similar to what they were used to. That may induce the player to think or feel more in control even if the underlying travel and sensor read hasn't changed.
When you play fast you cannot feel the (fake) let-off, so I don't think that is the problem. Paradoxically the let-off is more a problem when you play in the pp range, because your brain thinks you are applying a certain amount of force, then, suddenly, you feel a little resistance that changes the resulting velocity of the key travel to the bottom.

If you only plan to play digital pianos, it doesn't matter so much, just choose an action that works for you. But if your primary instrument(s) to play or perform on are acoustic pianos, then translation of digital practice sessions to the acoustic instrument matters, and the closer emulation is beneficial.

I completely agree: If one does not care about this nostalgy in emulating all the pros and cons of an acoustic piano, nor needs to frequently play on those, then I don't really see any need for escapement.

Last edited by Djengis; 04/17/21 07:26 AM.
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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by Djengis
Peterws, actually the Kawai ES 920 has got the same keybed as the Mp 7se PLUS it has bluetooth. I strongly considered it but decided not to, due to few sounds. But if beautiful piano is your thing I'd probably go with that model: Only 17 kg and loudspeakers. I don't recall if it has audio over Midi though.
But with the DGX I prefer recording the audio to a thumb drive, then select and later take it to my DAW or if ok raw then that. I believe the es 920 includes the thumb drive option. Strange if not.
I don't even know if you are out for a new piano, so if not I am speaking to those who are. ☺️

No, I don't want a new piano. My P515 is lovely to play, suits my fingers well and Pianoteq is wonderful now. I moght try F.I. again for fun. But my fingers were never very fast, and they're a darn sight slower now!
Playing actually helps them a lot.
Right, I agree the P515 has a great feel to it. Yes no need to change that one I think.

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Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by Djengis
[...]To me the looks is completely irrelevant in a piano. Or I buy an expensive grand piano hybrid piano. But for the practical purpose of making music, I could not care less really.
Of course it has to sound good, but personally, I'm very sensitive to the looks of an instrument... If I had to buy a digital piano for a recording studio or for gigging maybe the looks would have no much importance, but for something to put inside my house it has to look good too, especially when we are considering a very large instrument like a DP with 88-keys. To each his own! wink

Surely the looks is good to have, but if not ghastly ugly I don't mind so much, although I like to have some style at home too.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
The question is surprising. If the purpose is to have a small cost 88 keys arranger, why comparing with the MP7SE ? DGX670 vs Korg Havian (or Korg XE80) would be a more pertinent question.

DGX670 vs MP7SE is like comparing a sedan car and a pickup. Ok, they have both 4 wheels... and the best depends of the use case.

I don't compare according to price but according to needs.

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