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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Does your piano also have a gear shifter and a clutch? smile

Funnily enough I was thinking about how half pedalling is like feeling the clutch. Searching for just the right position while pressing down with the foot to get the desired result.

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Didn't think clutches wre still on cars anymore. We're forced into the automatic gearbox stuff now; they have no idea. A car without a starting handle can never look right.

Last edited by peterws; 04/11/21 09:43 AM.

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Originally Posted by mmathew
Sourcing from same manufacturer, I suspect Fatar? Sorry for the OT!

Yes, you hit the nail on the head, it's an outsourced Fatar unit, and generally considered not very durable/reliable.

It's been replaced with a Kawai-made optical sensor unit on the newer DPs like the MP11SE, and would be a nice upgrade if it were also done for a VPC-2 wink


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Originally Posted by U3piano
I feel this way about many products I encounter, (usually physical products.) For example pianoteq, you are modartt and take your modelled piano serious, I would think. It is modelled so you don't have to bother with samples, and then you don't take advantage of this fact and implement a modeled version of "repetition samples" to make your vst sound way more authentic/less sterile? (This is when you have the sustain pedal pressed down and you hit the same key twice or more, on an acoustic piano it sounds slightly different/more "stringy".)

Pianoteq 7.3 includes this:

Improved repetition model benefiting all acoustic pianos.

I have no idea if it's the same thing that you're talking about, but 7.3 feels improved across the board.

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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by U3piano
I feel this way about many products I encounter, (usually physical products.) For example pianoteq, you are modartt and take your modelled piano serious, I would think. It is modelled so you don't have to bother with samples, and then you don't take advantage of this fact and implement a modeled version of "repetition samples" to make your vst sound way more authentic/less sterile? (This is when you have the sustain pedal pressed down and you hit the same key twice or more, on an acoustic piano it sounds slightly different/more "stringy".)

Pianoteq 7.3 includes this:

Improved repetition model benefiting all acoustic pianos.

I have no idea if it's the same thing that you're talking about, but 7.3 feels improved across the board.

Sounds like it might be. I've re-d/l 7.3 on the 'puter I'm writing this on, so I can soon find out. I hope so; that'd be a darn sight more than the icing on the cake imo and would obviate the need to harress Pianoteq on their forum!


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Originally Posted by navindra
Pianoteq 7.3 includes this:

Improved repetition model benefiting all acoustic pianos.
.

When was this version released? When i tried it, a couple of weeks ago, nothing audible seemed to happen with repeated pedal down notes.

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Originally Posted by peterws
I don't think any digital does this properly, do they?

Roland claims to do this - at least somewhat:

https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rg-3f/

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Originally Posted by Ctopher7
Roland claims to do this - at least somewhat:

https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rg-3f/


Do you mean the Progressive Damper-Action Pedal?

Quote
The RG-3F features Roland’s new Progressive Damper Action pedal mechanism, which closely replicates the pedal response of acoustic pianos. When you first start to depress the damper pedal it offers lighter resistance, but as you depress it further, the resistance increases just as it would on an acoustic piano when the dampers start to move up from the strings. This new design also enables more accurate “half-pedaling” response, where the depth of the damper pedal allows subtle control of the decay of the tone. Thus, the Progressive Damper Action Pedal offers the sensitive and expressive pedaling response required by the most demanding pianists.

I didn't get the sense that is what peterws was asking about. I think he was asking if any digital pianos actually adjusted the weighting of the key action based on the damper pedal position. All the manufacturers have claims/brand names for "realistic" or "grand expression" or "grand touch" pedal feel, and they all really just amount to a simple spring; none of these have any affect on the keys themselves, other than the Novus line.


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Has "pedal authenticity" become the new "pivot length"? smile

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Has "pedal authenticity" become the new "pivot length"? smile

I think it's the new "key downweight" cool grin


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by Ctopher7
Roland claims to do this - at least somewhat:

https://www.roland.com/ca/products/rg-3f/


Do you mean the Progressive Damper-Action Pedal?

Quote
The RG-3F features Roland’s new Progressive Damper Action pedal mechanism, which closely replicates the pedal response of acoustic pianos. When you first start to depress the damper pedal it offers lighter resistance, but as you depress it further, the resistance increases just as it would on an acoustic piano when the dampers start to move up from the strings. This new design also enables more accurate “half-pedaling” response, where the depth of the damper pedal allows subtle control of the decay of the tone. Thus, the Progressive Damper Action Pedal offers the sensitive and expressive pedaling response required by the most demanding pianists.

I didn't get the sense that is what peterws was asking about. I think he was asking if any digital pianos actually adjusted the weighting of the key action based on the damper pedal position. All the manufacturers have claims/brand names for "realistic" or "grand expression" or "grand touch" pedal feel, and they all really just amount to a simple spring; none of these have any affect on the keys themselves, other than the Novus line.

A decent progressive damper pedal for a digtal might well help to achieve a sort-of result. My own conclusions are that heavy sympathetic or damper resonances are called for, to make this work, as on an acoustic.
One very rarely holds the damper pedal down on an acoustic; the cacophany of noise demands control.
Digitals rarely if ever have such pronouncd resonances.
Pianoteq however, has. And when they get wacked up, you'll hear much the same cacophany and you'll back off the throttle as they might say.
This is a partial solution and perhaps as good as it gets; unless a genuine grand or upsight action is in the mix, the key weight will not change. If it is then sure as heck the volume of the piano plus resonances will escalate to a frightening level!
Only then will the thing be a hybrid! (disclaimer: "imo")

..


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I remember seeing this RD-2000 video and I was thinking about this thread.
I had forgotten everything about that video save this:

The guy uses the tone designer to raise all settings up to the max levels, including String Resonance, Damper Resonance etc. etc. and I believe he used the default tone (V-Piano). Without pressing any of the keys, he pressed the damper pedal, and immediately a sound was heard, which he said was the sound of the strings vibrating as they were released by the damper. (around 6:40 - 6:55 timestamp)

I tried to do this with the P515 and I wasn't able to hear anything - maybe I'll crank the volume up.

- I'm assuming all acoustics do this?
- Do upright acoustics also behave such?
- Do all/most DPs have this behavior built in to the onboard sounds?
- What about VSTs?

Last edited by mmathew; 04/15/21 07:50 AM.

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Acoustics do. Pianoteq does, very well! I like to hear it whoooshh! without any strings pressed., or even with them.


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Hello,

Originally Posted by mmathew
- What about VSTs?

VI Labs' Modern U certainly and very satisfactorily does this, and I love that. I'd imagine there should be more VSTs doing so for sure. Even the free 'Salamander piano' (which plays in sforzando) I started out VST-ing with last fall, has such an effect.

Modern U even makes these pedal sounds velocity dependant: gently activating the pedal gives subtle whoosh and mechanism sounds, depressing and/or releasing the pedal quickly/suddenly most satisfyingly 'clunks' the pedal 'mechanism'. I guess this needs your pedal to be of the continuous type.

This week I further refined my speaker setup, now I experience even more 'realism' with my piano, including these pedal effects. When my setup is 'finalized', I think I'll dedicate a new thread to share my rather enjoyable findings.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

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The “whoosh” sound of the dampers clearing up off the strings is something all acoustic pianos do, though it’s something that better builders and technicians try to minimize. The damper type, its regulation/travel, and the relative hardness of the damper felt will all have an effect on its extent.

Given how the sound propagates from an upright piano, you’re unlikely to hear or notice it. On a grand piano, it is audible and increasingly so based on how fast you push the damper pedal. I do use it as an effect to excite the strings before the fortissimo opening chord in the Grieg piano concerto, though you’re not going to hear that above the orchestra.


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Thank you HZ and Peter.

Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Originally Posted by mmathew
- What about VSTs?

VI Labs' Modern U certainly and very satisfactorily does this, and I love that.

...

HZ

Wow; nice to know! Is Modern U sample based? If then, more wow!



Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,
I think I'll dedicate a new thread to share my rather enjoyable findings.

HZ

Now I'll await that thread. That will be the one thread which rules them all :-)


Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

You know I first thought of biking, right? laugh


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
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Hello,

Originally Posted by mmathew
Wow; nice to know! Is Modern U sample based? If then, more wow!

Yes, it is. Every and all fine detail is sampled, and in a musically wonderful quality--at least to my taste.

Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by HZPiano
I think I'll dedicate a new thread to share my rather enjoyable findings.
Now I'll await that thread. That will be the one thread which rules them all :-)

Well, well... no pressure then... 🙄

Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

You know I first thought of biking, right? laugh

That... euh... just figures 😀

Cheers,

HZ
😉

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Originally Posted by peterws
I don't think any digital does this properly, do they?
When you press the loud pedal, you'll get this whoosh! of the damper resonance which is great in those digitals which have it, and the VSTs too.
However, when you depress the damper pedal, it also releases the damper bar with your feet, so your fingers are freed to play the note without the extra load of this damper on it. It becomes lighter to play, and will sound louder if you don't adjust for it.
Indeed, you can on an acoustic, exploit this turn of affairs, and create a nice lilt in your playing; a periodic swell to the music which is part of the piano experience. A necessary part, some might add.
I know of no digital that achieves this, either by mechanical means (which would lighten the keys) or by electronic means (which would increase the volume somewhat) to achieve a similar result when the pedal is depressed.
Even the Yamaha N3X only gives you a calibrated feel to the action of a grand; no mention of the other.
Am I right, or horribly wrong?

The NV-10 has a damper mechanic, even though it technically wouldn't need it.

When you press the damper pedal, it makes the Whoosh! sound, but the keys also get lighter because it lifts actual dampers. So, the NV-10 would be able to recreate this effect of "damper up == louder music" (when using the same touch).

It was (one of) the reasons why I chose the NV-10 instead of the N1X, because I felt like Yamaha would only add this to the N1Y (or whatever) in another 8 years. The NV-10 felt more complete to me. (The one missing thing is shifting the keyboard when pressing the Una Corda pedal... but that is something that's actually -completely- unnecessary in a digital, and only serves to retain the quirks of an acoustic piano.)

Last edited by Falsch; 04/15/21 11:18 AM.

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Does Pianoteq or Roland actually model the whoosh? Most DPs nowadays have some kind of pedal noise (whoosh or clunk) but it's typically just a "throwaway sample" like key-off/hammer noise. The half-pedal capable DPs will usually modulate the noise so that it's quieter or silent with smooth, slow pedal presses, and louder with sudden presses and releases, which better simulates an acoustic.

I've heard pianists are trained to adjust their pedaling technique to minimize these noises, particularly for concerts/recordings.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Does Pianoteq or Roland actually model the whoosh? Most DPs nowadays have some kind of pedal noise (whoosh or clunk) but it's typically just a "throwaway sample" like key-off/hammer noise. The half-pedal capable DPs will usually modulate the noise so that it's quieter or silent with smooth, slow pedal presses, and louder with sudden presses and releases, which better simulates an acoustic.

I've heard pianists are trained to adjust their pedaling technique to minimize these noises, particularly for concerts/recordings.
According to modartt Pianoteq model mechanical sound in the modern grands but uses samples for the historical instruments.


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