2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) SWEETWATER Cyber Week Deals
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
83 members (almo82, An Old Square, ambrozy, anotherscott, Boboulus, accordeur, Abdol, Ajax69, 19 invisible), 850 guests, and 933 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#3105460 04/12/21 05:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 135
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 135
Hi,

Anyone can help me to understand if:

1) the cantilever solution is still used for new baby grand?

2) is it substantially a disadvantage?

3) do you know if it is used in the Kawai baby grands?

Thank you


"I tell my piano things" that I don’t have to tell everyone.
smile
Frederic Chopin (revisited)
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,893
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 6,893
The design is used in most small grand pianos. Technicians, designers, and rebuilders discuss/debate this somewhat frequently.

As a pianist, I don’t really care, either way. Either the bass works acceptably well, evenly, and with a good tone on a small piano...or it doesn’t! I prefer to evaluate a well-prepped, finished piano on its performance instead of the parts, technology, or marketing.


Pianist, teacher, apprentice technician, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
I don't think Kawai uses a cantilevered bridge, Guido. Here are some photos of the front and back of the bridge from my Kawai GL10.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 135
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
The design is used in most small grand pianos. Technicians, designers, and rebuilders discuss/debate this somewhat frequently.

As a pianist, I don’t really care, either way. Either the bass works acceptably well, evenly, and with a good tone on a small piano...or it doesn’t! I prefer to evaluate a well-prepped, finished piano on its performance instead of the parts, technology, or marketing.

Hi, Terminaldegree,

I am a prospective owner of Kawai GL-30, my first and likely the only piano of my life. I am in my late sixties, up to now I owned a digital piano (a Yamaha Cvp 307) and I am trying to learn as much as possible from this forum. I agree with you about the ultimate importance of the quality of the sound, however, I am also fascinated by yhe incredible technology on which pianos are built.

To understand what determine a quality of a piano looks interesting to me.


"I tell my piano things" that I don’t have to tell everyone.
smile
Frederic Chopin (revisited)
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 595
T
500 Post Club Member
Online Content
500 Post Club Member
T
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 595
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
As a pianist, I don’t really care, either way. Either the bass works acceptably well, evenly, and with a good tone on a small piano...or it doesn’t! I prefer to evaluate a well-prepped, finished piano on its performance instead of the parts, technology, or marketing.

Yes.

Originally Posted by Guido, Roma - Italy
To understand what determine a quality of a piano looks interesting to me.

Absolutly understood, but if at all possible, you should guard against letting this be part of your decision. Same way with speakers. Really cool technology is very tempting, but ideally you should make buying decisions blindfolded. (Said the owner of a pair of electrostatic speakers.)

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
I'm fairly confident that Kawai does use a cantilevered bridge in most of their models. It is an almost ubiquitous design element in small grands. It would be a very short list of exceptions to this design element.

Emery Wang, the angles of your photos suggest it is cantilevered, but at those angles, the plate obscures what would be clear evidence. Looking straight down will show with certainty.

I just looked at a 5'11" Kawai GX-2, for example, and it has a cantilevered bridge. It's not just very small pianos that use this.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
I believe Weber/Young Chang's small grands would be on the short list of short pianos that have a direct connect bass bridge. To make this design work, they also had to employ a floating soundboard. Del Fandrich created these designs and has worked with many other companies.

He is likely familiar with makes that use this correctly, the design advantages (ideal circumstances) as well as some of the practical trade-offs in real world examples if you are looking for an expert on the subject.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
Thanks Sam. I may be looking for the wrong thing. Would the profile of a cantilevered bridge look like an upside down L? If the Weber is cantilevered, I can say that my friend's 4' 11" Weber baby grand has a much stronger bass than the Kawai. Don't know if the bridge has anything to do with it, it might be the floating soundboard. Whatever Del did, his design makes for a pretty impressive bass on a small piano.


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 135
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 135
Quote
if at all possible, you should guard against letting this be part of your decision. ... Really cool technology is very tempting, but ideally you should make buying decisions blindfolded. (Said the owner of a pair of electrostatic speakers.)

I take your point, it reminds me the same advice given by most people here in this forum, however, I also read in this forum that

1) the sound of any piano will likely change in the following two years (for new pianos);

2) my personal taste in terms of sound will likely change in the future;

3) the sound of the same piano in different locations will change;

4) the sound of the same piano in the same location will change depending on the placement and on the furniture in the room (diagonal, in the corner, parallel to the wall, with bookshelves, carpet, curtains, wood floor, tile floor, etc.);

5) the sound of the same piano will sound differently depending on how it is prepped.

6) last but not least, all the above will be more difficult to evaluate for a non professional musician.

Therefore ... once I stretched my initial budget I decided to make a conservative choice:

1) the best and more robust touch (the keyboard can change but not so much depending on how it is prepped);

2) the reliability of the brand;

3) best price for the same size.

This is why I choose almost blindfolded a Kawai GL-30 ... nonetheless, I appreciate to know the weaknesses and strengths of the piano I am going to get. Actually, if I could, I would like to participate to a course on pianos building.

I read that the cantilever allows longer strings but at the same time it is less efficient in the trasmission of energy to the soundboard. Is this true? Did I understood correctly the criticism on the cantilever?

Last edited by Guido, Roma - Italy; 04/13/21 02:59 PM.

"I tell my piano things" that I don’t have to tell everyone.
smile
Frederic Chopin (revisited)
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
Here is a photo that will help illustrate. On the left is the bass bridge with a moderate cantilever...the top of the bridge is not directly over the base of the bridge where it is attached to the soundboard. Some cantilevers are larger (more offset) than this. Some, like this, are cantilevered only at one end...as the bridge curve sweeps back, it the cantilever reduces until the strings are eventually directly over the connection to the soundboard (would require an overhead shot to see this clearly).

The treble bridge on the right is tapered at the bottom, but is an example of a direct connect bridge. Frequently, piano designers will shift and shape the tapering to follow some optimal line, while also shaping the bridge pin pattern at the top to further clean up the string scaling. This process is a milder form of the design principle that calls for the cantilever.

[Linked Image]

In Del's design, the bass bridge is directly connected, not cantilevered. Direct connection is a more energy efficient transfer of vibrations. Because it is on a small piano, the cost of having a direct connect bass bridge is placing it in too stiff of an area (soundboard moves more freely as you approach the center of the board, less freely as you approach the rim where it is glued down). Del's solution to this is to have a "floating soundboard", or specifically an area in the bass where the soundboard is cut away from the rim and not glued down. This floating soundboard (and a lot of other calculations) will then allow the bass bridge to vibrate more freely.

Floating soundboards are virtually absent in production grand pianos from any other makers I know of. However, floating soundboards in upright pianos are made in a variety of brands. I don't know the history of this design element, but I've seen it in marketing of a few upright pianos for at least 16 years.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Emery Wang #3105821 04/13/21 03:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 135
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
I don't think Kawai uses a cantilevered bridge, Guido. Here are some photos of the front and back of the bridge from my Kawai GL10.

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

Beautiful photos Emery!

Still liking your GL-10? Did you choose this size for space constraints?


"I tell my piano things" that I don’t have to tell everyone.
smile
Frederic Chopin (revisited)
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
Originally Posted by Guido, Roma - Italy
I read that the cantilever allows longer strings but at the same time it is less efficient in the trasmission of energy to the soundboard. Is this true? Did I understood correctly the criticism on the cantilever?
This is the tradeoff between the 2 types of bridge designs. However, the nature of design is compromise, and with so many choices, it is difficult to analyze any one variable. Frequently a maker will have both types of bridge designs within their lineup, switching from cantilever in smaller grands to direct connect in larger grands once the improvement of bridge placement overtakes the benefit of longer strings...it's a continuum.

The floating soundboard seems to be the key ingredient to make direct connect bridges perform as intended on smaller grands. I'm not aware of the sound design or reliability tradeoffs that may accompany this change, but I assume there are some. I will be curious if more makers will follow suit.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
Thanks Guido. I really like the GL10, except I prefer a stronger bass that a larger piano gives. However, the sound is well balanced on the GL10. It was my first grand and I knew I wanted a Kawai, so I simply bought the entry model. At the time I didn't know anything about grands, and how size affected the bass response. I have since replaced it with a 6' 4" Petrof, but the GL10 is at my friend's house so I still get to play it now and then. Had I gotten a GL30, I may not have needed to replace it.

Good luck with your piano. I really like Kawais and they are at the top of my preferred piano list.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 04/13/21 03:32 PM.

Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,225
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,225
Originally Posted by PianoWorksATL
Floating soundboards are virtually absent in production grand pianos from any other makers I know of.

My August Förster 215 has a floating soundboard.


August Förster 215
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,031
D
3000 Post Club Member
Offline
3000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,031
I am interested in this topic because my 1878 Bluthner has a cantilevered bass bridge.

Back in 2008 there was an extensive thread on cantilevered bass bridges, which contained a substantial discourse on the subject by Del. This is the link.

AaronSF #3105854 04/13/21 04:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
Originally Posted by AaronSF
My August Förster 215 has a floating soundboard.

Do you feel the floating board makes it sound different than other pianos its size Aaron? In particular, I wonder if it enhances the bass.


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,670
Platinum Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Platinum Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 12,670
Hi all,

Sam did a wonderful job of explaining the "cantilevered bass bridge". I can tell you with confidence that every small Kawai grand I have seen uses this design.


Rich Galassini
Cunningham Piano Company
Visit one of our four locations
(215) 991-0834 direct
rich@cunninghampiano.com
Learn more about the Matchless Cunningham
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,075
Evidently my cantilevered bridge didn't slap me on the back of my head, else I would have recognized it.


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 410
B
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 410
Sam,

What make of piano is in your picture? I ask because I don't recall seeing the end of a treble bridge being undercut like that. Usually it's the opposite, the end of the bridge flares out at the bottom to help avoid the end of bridge syndrome.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,095
Hello Bill,

The photo was of a Bösendorfer, I believe a 214VC. I'd have to defer to their design team about what other adaptations they made to the soundboard and bridges to accomplish their goals. It certainly works well on that instrument.

For the purposes of this post, I was only referring to the left and right side tapers.


Sam Bennett
PianoWorks - Atlanta Piano Dealer
Bösendorfer, Estonia, Seiler, Grotrian, Hailun
Pre-Owned: Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway & other fine pianos
Full Restoration Shop
www.PianoWorks.com
www.youtube.com/PianoWorksAtlanta
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Talking while playing
by wg73 - 12/01/21 03:19 PM
Santa Claus is Coming to Town edited by Chopin
by pianoloverus - 12/01/21 03:03 PM
sliding thumbnail
by Tono - 12/01/21 02:44 PM
Buying first EP - need advice
by Nadrog - 12/01/21 01:15 PM
How long is an "average" player a "beginner?"
by Mils - 12/01/21 10:26 AM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,336
Posts3,150,007
Members103,486
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5