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Given the ambiguous meaning of tenuto marks (see below)

In Rachmaninoff's "Moment Musical" No 5 in D-flat major which I am currently working to perfect, there is an abudance of tenuto marks over the right hand melody notes (or under them, in some cases), more than I have seen in any other work for piano.

For those of you who have played this work, do you interpret these marks to mean :

- extra emphasis on these notes, (i.e. volume) or

- holding them for (more than?) their full value as a way of writing a rubato into the score at these points?

I would doubt, given the Adagio sostenuto indication and the generally calm nature of this work, that increased volume is the intent, as Rachmaninoff writes these marks both over notes in pp passages as well as in f passages, inclining me to think that "emphasizing" these notes by holding them for fractions beyond their note-value is the composer's intent.

What do you think?

Pogorolich is so eccentric in his recording of this work, playing a totally different version from the scores (that I have), at a tempo that's so slow it's static. Lugansky, on the other hand, has a beautiful interpretation, although his interpretation doesn't answer my question.

The precise meaning of tenuto is ambiguous: it can mean either hold the note in question its full length (or longer, with slight rubato), or play the note slightly louder. In other words, the tenuto mark may alter either the dynamics or the duration of a note. Either way, the marking indicates that a note should receive emphasis.

Regards,

I personally interpret tenuto as being not only a held emphasis as you say but also a requirement to play with a fuller sound, a richer tone than the rest of the melodic line.

I think the one in bar 3 is the one that gives it away. I think they are to mark the fact that the melody is A flat - D flat - F - A flat, and not A flat - D flat - F - F.

I understand what you are saying, but that doesn't make much sense to me. In measure 4, there is a tenuto on the G-flat of the first right hand chord, but no subsequent tenutos on the following notes in the right hand in that measure until the tenuto under the D-flat in measure 5.

More importantly, in another edition I have, the tenuto mark is above the chord in measure 3, contradicting what you are suggesting. In fact, the one edition from IMSLP that I assume you are consulting has tenuto marks under the chords in measures 7 and 8 as well as elsewhere in the piece, while another edition has the tenuto marks over the chords throughout the entire piece.

It makes little sense to me to have tenuto marks under the last two chords of measure 17 and tenuto marks over the first two chords of mneasure 18 when this is a single, continuing phrase with the melody obviously - to me - in the top line.

I think it's just a case of quirky editing of this particular Russian edition.

Nevertheless, it was an interesting thought, but one I won't subscribe to since it doesn't make musical sense in the context of the piece where similar phrases are not similarly marked.

Regards,

OK, let's consider the under/over an error then (i.e. I was led astray by that editor), and put the melody where it belongs. I would still consider them "melody markers", and neither accents nor lengthened, i.e. I think Rachmaninoff has re-purposed these marks and is using them completely outside of the definition you gave.

In Rachmaninoff, it's often to emphasize. It's the rich, juicy tone that comes all the way from your back and very much through the fingertip. Sometimes he does it on "hidden" meloies.

Today I just noticed some tenuto markings in the 3rd mvt of the second sonata, and felt like such a complete idiot, I never noticed that the tenuto markings represent the chromatic opening theme of the 1st movement.

As has been the case with some expressive indications described by other people at times .....I was a little misled by what you called them. I never would have guessed you meant 'those things.' (I figured you probably meant that "tenuto" or "ten." was written over each of those notes.) Is that really their technical name? I've never heard them called anything but "accents" (along with a couple of other markings that are called likewise).

(Did everyone else know that "tenuto marks" meant those things?)

Whatever they're called, I confidently see them as meaning, sort of broaden the tempo, lingering on those notes, and do whatever you can to create the illusion that their sound is being sustained longer than is really possible on a piano.

P.S. (edit) Looks to me like Kuanpiano and Pogo said essentially this same thing.

Virginia Tech Musical Dictionary : "Legato Accent - this can be used at any dynamic level and is a slight stress without a noticable attack and held to the full duration of the note."

Dolmetsch Online : (with an illustration of the symbol) "placed above or below the note-head, tenuto: (Italian) note held to its written length, i.e. not detached

the horizontal line ( – ) sign, with or without a dot above or below the line, was rarely used before the mid-nineteenth-century although some earlier instruction books refer to its use. Without a dot, the horizontal line mark in piano music indicates that the "... keys must be struck with more than the usual emphasis, and the notes must be held for almost more than their usual value" (Czerny). Most nineteenth-century commentators follow this definition, with Wagner suggesting, where applicable, the use of a discrete vibrato

[and also (still from Dolmetsch Online)] "Tenuto mark : a short horizontal line over the notehead ... a tenuto mark can mean either hold the note in question its full length (or longer, with slight rubato) or else play the note slightly louder. In other words, the tenuto mark is sometimes interpreted as an articulation mark and sometimes interpreted as a dynamic mark. When it appears in conjunction with an accent mark, it is of course taken as an indication of articulation, and, conversely, when it appears in conjunction with a staccato mark, it is taken as an indication of a slight dynamic accent. When it appears by itself, its meaning must be determined by its musical context"

In all my musical training, these have always been referred to as "tenuto" marks and so named by Dolmetsch. In the case of this particular piece there are so many of them in the two scores that I have that writing ten. at every instance would clutter the score a lot more than these "tenuto" or "legato" markings do.

Regards,

It might be illuminating to listen to Rachmaninoff's own recordings of his works, and note what he does where he uses the tenuto mark. I don't think he recorded that particular piece, but there might be enough examples in other works that he did record that you could perhaps get an idea.

I had this similar question for a long time concerning Tchaikovsky's October from the Seasons.
Recently I was watching a documentary masterclass from a fmgrwatvRussian Pianist and teacher, Vera Gornostaeva, she explained that this tenuto marks of course meant Rubato.

these 'tenuto' marks mean emphasis, some say:'pinkysolo' to these chords or intervals, it never means: 'rubato', first there is a word for that, second don't do it, it would ruin your performance. Rachmaninoff wrote an adundance of these 'tenuto' marks, they are all important in showing where the melodic line is.

Reading this thread suddenly revived from nearly eleven years of obscurity, I had totally forgotten and still don't remember that I had ever worked on the Rachmaninoff Moment Musical No. 5, but I guess I must have. I'll have to look it up.

They say that it's the short-term memory that goes. Hah!

I've played more Rachmaninoff since, although not a lot, and of all the composers whose music I have played, I have never seen scores with as many tenuto marks as I find in Rachmaninoff's music.

Regards,

Ironically, I've just revived this piece along with some other short Rachmaninoff pieces. He wrote some lovely harmonies. It's such a pleasure and honor to be able to listen to recordings by the composer himself. I use them for tempo ideas.

Hope you are well!

Hi

Hope you are well and keeping safe

I have just started learning this piece. My teacher informs me that the line also indicates which note of the chord has to sing. This is what he understands Rachmaninov wanted and referred to the church bells which he missed from home.

Therefore, if the line is under the chord it is the lower note that sings and visa versa.

Blessings to you all