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#3104648 04/10/21 06:20 PM
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peterws Offline OP
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I don't think any digital does this properly, do they?
When you press the loud pedal, you'll get this whoosh! of the damper resonance which is great in those digitals which have it, and the VSTs too.
However, when you depress the damper pedal, it also releases the damper bar with your feet, so your fingers are freed to play the note without the extra load of this damper on it. It becomes lighter to play, and will sound louder if you don't adjust for it.
Indeed, you can on an acoustic, exploit this turn of affairs, and create a nice lilt in your playing; a periodic swell to the music which is part of the piano experience. A necessary part, some might add.
I know of no digital that achieves this, either by mechanical means (which would lighten the keys) or by electronic means (which would increase the volume somewhat) to achieve a similar result when the pedal is depressed.
Even the Yamaha N3X only gives you a calibrated feel to the action of a grand; no mention of the other.
Am I right, or horribly wrong?


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Originally Posted by peterws
However, when you depress the damper pedal, it also releases the damper bar with your feet, so your fingers are freed to play the note without the extra load of this damper on it. It becomes lighter to play, and will sound louder if you don't adjust for it.
Indeed, you can on an acoustic, exploit this turn of affairs, and create a nice lilt in your playing; a periodic swell to the music which is part of the piano experience. A necessary part, some might add.

The Kawai Novus NV10 does exactly this. It feels pretty authentic as far as I can tell and it definitely impacts my playing in a similar way to what you described.

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+1. This is exactly what the NV-10 and NV-5 do. The Novus hybrids have the full damper bar assembly mechanically linked to the damper pedal, and also individual damper weights on each key in a full back action assembly (minus the wire raisers and felts of course).

When you play with the damper pedal down, all they keys go lighter weight. When the damper pedal is up, you can feel the engagement point when the keystick contacts the damper weights and start lifting them. And if you drop the damper pedal with keys down, you feel the damper weights in your fingers as they drop back onto the keys.


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peterws Offline OP
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Thanks for that, guys! And they're the only two to do this? I'm surprised, particularly since this valuable aid to piano enjoyment is not replicated in electronic form at least, even on higher end digitals.
On a silent piano, I imagine the effect would also translate to the digial reproduction too because the mechanics will still operate and lighten the keys.
I think I could tolerate a silent Kawai in my little office . .

Last edited by peterws; 04/10/21 07:14 PM.

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>> When you press the loud pedal,

What's this loud pedal?


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Originally Posted by peterws
On a silent piano, I imagine the effect would also translate to the digial reproduction too because the mechanics will still operate and lighten the keys.

I think so. A silent piano would drop a silent rail to block the hammers but wouldn't affect the damper bar.


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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by peterws
On a silent piano, I imagine the effect would also translate to the digial reproduction too because the mechanics will still operate and lighten the keys.

I think so. A silent piano would drop a silent rail to block the hammers but wouldn't affect the damper bar.

Can confirm, there is no difference in action + damper mechanisms between silent and acoustic modes, except that in silent mode the hammers are stopped by a bar just before they would hit the strings. Since the latter happens after let-off, you cannot feel this.

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Any dp without a real damper mechanism could easily adjust volume or slightly soften the velocity curve when pressing the sustain pedal to give the impression of slightly lighter keys. Of course this should be a feature that can be turned off, as not everyone will want that.

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I've noticed when playing an acoustic grand I quickly notice that I can half pedal, probably not well because of inexperience but something I can play with and I find almost impossible with the pedal unit on my MP11se. But also the same on a couple of DPs.

Has anyone been able to play with half pedalling to their satisfaction on a DP, which DP worked for you and also perhaps which virtual piano?

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Originally Posted by mmathew
>> When you press the loud pedal,

What's this loud pedal?

Aww, come on! smile Some of us aren't so posh . . . .


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Originally Posted by U3piano
Any dp without a real damper mechanism could easily adjust volume or slightly soften the velocity curve when pressing the sustain pedal to give the impression of slightly lighter keys. Of course this should be a feature that can be turned off, as not everyone will want that.

It shouldn't be turned off; it's part of the piano. Volume adjustment perhaps. But the question that bothers me is . . .why haven't they done this a long time ago? I could almost design such a simple electrical mechanism myself using the back of a fag packet . . .


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Originally Posted by peterws
It shouldn't be turned off; it's part of the piano. Volume adjustment perhaps. But the question that bothers me is . . .why haven't they done this a long time ago? I could almost design such a simple electrical mechanism myself using the back of a fag packet . . .

I feel this way about many products I encounter, (usually physical products.) For example pianoteq, you are modartt and take your modelled piano serious, I would think. It is modelled so you don't have to bother with samples, and then you don't take advantage of this fact and implement a modeled version of "repetition samples" to make your vst sound way more authentic/less sterile? (This is when you have the sustain pedal pressed down and you hit the same key twice or more, on an acoustic piano it sounds slightly different/more "stringy".) Vsl's vienna imperial has repetition samples for this. I would think this would be very easy to implement on a modelled piano. Come to think of it, probably not too hard to implement a bit of modelling for this feature on a sampled piano (without extra samples) either.

Quite often products frustrate me a bit because they could be much better with obvious and easy changes. I guess some company's don't actually use their own products, or I'm just that innovative. smirk Actually I tend to modify things to my liking whenever I see the possibility.

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The VSL synchron pianos adjust the velocity applied when the loud/sustain (everyone happy 😛) pedal is depressed. I am not certain how well this mimics the feel and behaviour of an acoustic.

With an acoustic your fingers will notice that with a similar physical force the key will move more quickly with the sustain pedal pressed. You get a physical feedback as well as the audible feedback.

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Originally Posted by KevinM
Has anyone been able to play with half pedalling to their satisfaction on a DP, which DP worked for you and also perhaps which virtual piano?

Hello,

I am not classically trained so much as to consider myself proficient in half-pedaling at any level, yet, I have a setup that is satisfactory to my taste in this regard.

I solely play Modern U (by VI Labs) which has an excellent way to set MIDI pedal behavior to your liking, and can handle up to five pedals and/or parameter controls like wheels/knobs/sliders.

Of course the hardware is an important component as well; unfortunately the pedal functionality of my Roland FP-10 is insufficient for any refined pedal behavior. So I chose a third-party decent piano-like continuous pedal, and concocted (as in contemplated, designed, soldered, tested, changed, soldered again, you get it) a direct interface from pedal to PC.

All of this works a dream (to me at least). In a later stage, I may be able to share details so that more of us can benefit from this approach. This will take more time, though.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Originally Posted by KevinM
Has anyone been able to play with half pedalling to their satisfaction on a DP, which DP worked for you and also perhaps which virtual piano?
Of course the hardware is an important component as well; unfortunately the pedal functionality of my Roland FP-10 is insufficient for any refined pedal behavior. So I chose a third-party decent piano-like continuous pedal, and concocted (as in contemplated, designed, soldered, tested, changed, soldered again, you get it) a direct interface from pedal to PC.

All of this works a dream (to me at least). In a later stage, I may be able to share details so that more of us can benefit from this approach. This will take more time, though.

I think it is the DP hardware that is the problem at least for me. There is something very different in the feel of the pedal when lifting something up and down as in an acoustic piano than working against a spring. I find the necessary control for half pedalling very difficult on my MP11se pedal unit so inevitably my foot is just resting with the pedal not pressed or the pedal fully down.

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Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,



I solely play Modern U (by VI Labs) which has an excellent way to set MIDI pedal behavior to your liking, and can handle up to five pedals and/or parameter controls like wheels/knobs/sliders.

Of course the hardware is an important component as well; unfortunately the pedal functionality of my Roland FP-10 is insufficient for any refined pedal behavior. So I chose a third-party decent piano-like continuous pedal, and concocted (as in contemplated, designed, soldered, tested, changed, soldered again, you get it) a direct interface from pedal to PC.

All of this works a dream (to me at least). In a later stage, I may be able to share details so that more of us can benefit from this approach. This will take more time, though.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

And THIS is what we need to hear! Manufacturers, Get on with it! We will accept no more the tasty morsels thrown from the rich man's table!. We are not dogs! Ye shall be judged by your responses ye scurvy knaves!
Commendation to Kawai; thou may well be saved from ye judgement to fall . . . .


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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by mmathew
>> When you press the loud pedal,

What's this loud pedal?

Aww, come on! smile Some of us aren't so posh . . . .

I seriously didn't know :-( And I looked it up after this reply...

I came to piano learning via the digital route, and then touched acoustics only when in the store to buy a digital, so I had no idea that the damper pedal is also referred to as loud pedal.

Last edited by mmathew; 04/11/21 06:52 AM.

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Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by HZPiano
Hello,



I solely play Modern U (by VI Labs) which has an excellent way to set MIDI pedal behavior to your liking, and can handle up to five pedals and/or parameter controls like wheels/knobs/sliders.

Of course the hardware is an important component as well; unfortunately the pedal functionality of my Roland FP-10 is insufficient for any refined pedal behavior. So I chose a third-party decent piano-like continuous pedal, and concocted (as in contemplated, designed, soldered, tested, changed, soldered again, you get it) a direct interface from pedal to PC.

All of this works a dream (to me at least). In a later stage, I may be able to share details so that more of us can benefit from this approach. This will take more time, though.

Cheers and happy pedaling,

HZ

And THIS is what we need to hear! Manufacturers, Get on with it! We will accept no more the tasty morsels thrown from the rich man's table!. We are not dogs! Ye shall be judged by your responses ye scurvy knaves!
Commendation to Kawai; thou may well be saved from ye judgement to fall . . . .

Speaking of pedals and Kawai.

A 3 pedal unit came with the Kawai VPC1. It performed great and the only complaint I had was that the unit kept slipping gently behind when the pedal was being used. Which I fixed by putting it on some rubber casters. A friend of mine has an SL88 Grand keyboard + pedal unit. I swear that this pedal unit is the exact same as the one that came with Kawai, look & feel, weight, construction - everything, except the logos on the top (the SL's logo was better, Kawai's seemed like a stuck label).

Sourcing from same manufacturer, I suspect Fatar? Sorry for the OT!


A man must love a thing very much if he practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practice it without any hope of doing it well. Such a man must love the toils of the work more than any other man can love the rewards of it.
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peterws Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by peterws
Originally Posted by mmathew
>> When you press the loud pedal,

What's this loud pedal?

Aww, come on! smile Some of us aren't so posh . . . .

I seriously didn't know :-( And I looked it up after this reply...

I came to piano learning via the digital route, and then touched acoustics only when in the store to buy a digital, so I had no idea that the damper pedal is also referred to as loud pedal.

Maybe I learnt something today. My dad always shouted for me to take my foot off the loud pedal. He probably thought it was the accelerator or something. And he bought the bl**dy thing in the first place though I never reminded him of this . . . ..


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Does your piano also have a gear shifter and a clutch? smile

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