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Originally Posted by Fleer
That new Petrof warm. Simply delicious.

I was trying classical recordings preset with external reverb and this is probably the best Pianoteq piano to date. Impressive really.

Last edited by slobajudge; 04/08/21 03:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by EssBrace
[quote=EPW]I don't love PianoTeq's tone because other than at the margins all the models sound the same, and they all have aspects of tone (or lack of tone) in common and that I dislike. I admire it technically and do appreciate its small footprint and reliability/stability in use though.

I have a few sampled libraries and PT and I have to say: The sample libraries also kind of sound the same, especially if you compare two libraries of the same piano, like a Steinway Model D.

And quite honestly, the PT Model D and for example the True Keys Model D sound a lot more alike then for example the Pianoteq Bechstein and the PT Model D. The difference between the new Petrof and the Model D in PT is quite siginificant, a lot larger then the difference between the True Keys Model D and True Keys Bechstein. So it really matters what exactly we are comparing here.

I'm turning internal effects off though and use an external reverb. Putting them in the same "room" does a lot to make them sound comparable.

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Originally Posted by Pete14
You know, Petrof once built a midi controller with a grand piano action; it looked a bit like the NV10 but more ‘square’ and it didn’t have speakers. A new version of this piano with speakers and powered by Pianoteq would be something special. I hope Petrof and other acoustic piano makers are paying attention.

In the organ world, this is completely normal.

Church organ: Hauptwerk-console. Build an organ console, and power it with Hauptwerk + Sample library, or the new kid, Organteq.
Console example

Hammond organ:
HX3 Hammond-like console, powered by GSi VB3.
HX3 drawbar module: can replace the drawbars of any digital Hammond). You basically remove the original drawbars and replace them with this module, and then then connect the module's sound output to the organ's speakers.
Mojo 61 Duo: Hammmond console, also powered by GSi VB3.
GSi Hammond controller: the "organ version" of the VPC1; connect to any computer and any VST you want.
Theatre organ: also some options, including Hauptwerk if I remember correctly.

So as I said, in the organ world it's completely normal to have an organ controller/console that is powered by a computer.


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Originally Posted by Falsch
Church organ: Hauptwerk-console. Build an organ console, and power it with Hauptwerk + Sample library, or the new kid, Organteq.

Console example:
[Linked Image]

Wow! 😲❤️ I need this!!!


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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by EPW
That is why I'm a fan of Pianoteq, the small foot-print.

Hey folks, come along a-running! I've got this swell new software piano!

Ooh, is it the most realistic?

No.

Is it really woody and warm then?

Err, no.

Does it play just like a high falutin Steinway like that there Horowitz's pi-anna?

Not exactly.

Well what makes it so hum-dickety-doo-dah swell then?

It has a small footprint.

Oh.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Falsch
Church organ: Hauptwerk-console. Build an organ console, and power it with Hauptwerk + Sample library, or the new kid, Organteq.

Console example:
[Linked Image]

Wow! 😲❤️ I need this!!!

Like a hole in the head.
I played church organ stuff. Hard to find a stop sometimes which doesn't sound like the thing's fartin' Or perhaps we needed a new blower man.

Last edited by peterws; 04/08/21 05:48 AM.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
Well what makes it so hum-dickety-doo-dah swell then?

It has a small footprint.

Oh.

IMO the small footprint is a game changer, now that our forum member navindra figured out how to run it on a Raspberry Pi system. I installed it on a Raspberry Pi 400 myself last week. For 75 euros you are done, and you have a nice headless system that works very well. No need for expensive computer hardware anymore. You do still need a usb audio device. Switch the computer on, wait for 20s and play, switch it off when you are done. Want to change settings/piano? Use your table or phone to connect the the Pi wirelessly and do so. Very elegant solution.

Last edited by pianogabe; 04/08/21 06:14 AM.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
IMO the small footprint is a game changer, now that our forum member navindra figured out how to run it on a Raspberry Pi system. I installed it on a Raspberry Pi 400 myself last week. For 75 euros you are done....Very elegant solution.

All irrelevant if you don't like the sound of it.

Some people just seem to be very sensitive to what they perceive to be PianoTeq's tonal deficiencies. I am one of those people. I wish I wasn't.

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Yes I agree. But what you perceive may change over time. I first liked Pianoteq, although it sounded slightly artificial, then switched to a sampled library (Bechstein Digital Grand), and after months switched back. Pianoteq suddenly sounded completely different to my ears: very bad and artificial. Somehow my auditory systems were matching pianoteq input with expected BDG sample input and 'magnified' the difference. Probably because I used the Bechstein in Pianoteq, which models the exact same sample library.... But after a while things normalized in my head, and now I think Pianoteq sounds good again.


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This is the Petrof ‘midi controller’ I mentioned earlier. Imagine this beast with speakers and Pianoteq built in!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Hk3oER31_...midi_visualisation_-_classic_cabinet.jpg

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Yes I agree. But what you perceive may change over time. I first liked Pianoteq, although it sounded slightly artificial, then switched to a sampled library (Bechstein Digital Grand), and after months switched back. Pianoteq suddenly sounded completely different to my ears: very bad and artificial. Somehow my auditory systems were matching pianoteq input with expected BDG sample input and 'magnified' the difference. Probably because I used the Bechstein in Pianoteq, which models the exact same sample library.... But after a while things normalized in my head, and now I think Pianoteq sounds good again.

Yes, there's definitely something in what you say. But I think it's telling that PianoTeq sounds good to you as long as you're not comparing it to a decent sample. I think in isolation PianoTeq is indeed acceptable. FWIW I think the PianoTeq Bechstein model is comfortably the best model they do, but to me it sounds nothing at all like a Bechstein. I feel that the names they call their models are just meaningless labels. I'd rather they just called them 'Piano Emulation 1', 'Piano Emulation 2', etc, etc.

Likewise, although you don't say explicitly, I think there's an implication in what you're saying that when you initially switched from PianoTeq to the BDG you did not experience the same negative reaction as when you switched back from the BDG to PianoTeq. My theory is that the sound of a real piano just somehow sits comfortably in the consciousness. The sound of a synthesised piano takes some time to become 'normal', and to certain people it never will.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
I feel that the names they call their models are just meaningless labels. I'd rather they just called them 'Piano Emulation 1', 'Piano Emulation 2', etc, etc.

I mean they are modeled after real world examples and the people of the brands like Steinway give their blessing for it and say "Jupp, that sounds like a Model D". Something they very rarely do for virtual instruments of any kind. Considering how good Steinway is in brand building, I'm pretty sure they aren't going to agree on anything that might not represent the brand to their standards.

And if I compare my sampled model Ds with the PT versions they sound rather similar, each one with specific characteristics, but close nevertheless. A lot closer then the PT instruments are to each other.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
Yes I agree. But what you perceive may change over time. I first liked Pianoteq, although it sounded slightly artificial, then switched to a sampled library (Bechstein Digital Grand), and after months switched back. Pianoteq suddenly sounded completely different to my ears: very bad and artificial. Somehow my auditory systems were matching pianoteq input with expected BDG sample input and 'magnified' the difference. Probably because I used the Bechstein in Pianoteq, which models the exact same sample library.... But after a while things normalized in my head, and now I think Pianoteq sounds good again.

I've never tried the original Bechstein DG but it think it would be interesting to compare it to the modeled version in Pianoteq since it is, as you say, the same samples that modartt used to create their version of it. I did once play along the audio examples that's on Bechsteins website with Pianoteq and I must say the sonic qualities was quite similar. How would you describe the differences when playing both and why did you go back to Pianoteq despite having the original digital grand?

Originally Posted by Pete14
This is the Petrof ‘midi controller’ I mentioned earlier. Imagine this beast with speakers and Pianoteq built in!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Hk3oER31_...midi_visualisation_-_classic_cabinet.jpg

Wow, this looks really nice and solid. I've never heard about it before, do you know how much they charged for it? Imagine Renner doing something like that (although that will probably never happen, especially now when they're owned by Steinway...:))

Last edited by johanibraaten; 04/08/21 07:38 AM.

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Originally Posted by FloRi89
Originally Posted by EssBrace
I feel that the names they call their models are just meaningless labels. I'd rather they just called them 'Piano Emulation 1', 'Piano Emulation 2', etc, etc.

I mean they are modeled after real world examples....

Yes but to me it just sounds like PianoTeq. I get that there are differences between their 'models', I really do, but they all have unifying tonal characteristics to my ears that means it's just PianoTeq to me. There's a thread running through every PinaoTeq sound. Difficult to explain but unmistakeable and un-piano-like.

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Originally Posted by EssBrace
But I think it's telling that PianoTeq sounds good to you as long as you're not comparing it to a decent sample. I think in isolation PianoTeq is indeed acceptable. FWIW I think the PianoTeq Bechstein model is comfortably the best model they do, but to me it sounds nothing at all like a Bechstein. I feel that the names they call their models are just meaningless labels. I'd rather they just called them 'Piano Emulation 1', 'Piano Emulation 2', etc, etc.

It's a business model aimed at selling you edited presets of the same tone generator. You're literally paying for the endorsement logo of the respective manufacturer which helps you with that illusion. Without the logo nobody could tell that this one "Pianoteq" preset should resemble a "Bechstein" grand and this other one a "Steinway".

It helps with marketing too, because each time a new preset has been created, someone creates a new thread on PW endorsing Ptq.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by EssBrace
But I think it's telling that PianoTeq sounds good to you as long as you're not comparing it to a decent sample. I think in isolation PianoTeq is indeed acceptable. FWIW I think the PianoTeq Bechstein model is comfortably the best model they do, but to me it sounds nothing at all like a Bechstein. I feel that the names they call their models are just meaningless labels. I'd rather they just called them 'Piano Emulation 1', 'Piano Emulation 2', etc, etc.

It's a business model aimed at selling you edited presets of the same tone generator. You're literally paying for the endorsement logo of the respective manufacturer which helps you with that illusion. Without the logo nobody could tell that this one "Pianoteq" preset should resemble a "Bechstein" grand and this other one a "Steinway".

It helps with marketing too, because each time a new preset has been created, someone creates a new thread on PW endorsing Ptq.

You do realize that is true for every VST?

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Originally Posted by JoeT
It's a business model aimed at selling you edited presets of the same tone generator.

Although this is a very cynical view, I think it has a good deal of merit. I do not believe, however, that it is quite as bad as that. In their general piano model, Modartt probably keeps certain parameters for themselves, so that the user cannot adjust them. And it is precisely these parameters that are used to distinguish the "Steinway B" from the "Grotrian", etc.

It would be interesting, maybe in a somewhat academic way, to see how close one Pianoteq instrument could be made to sound like another, using only the parameters available for the customer.


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Originally Posted by johanibraaten
I've never tried the original Bechstein DG but it think it would be interesting to compare it to the modeled version in Pianoteq since it is, as you say, the same samples that modartt used to create their version of it. I did once play along the audio examples that's on Bechsteins website with Pianoteq and I must say the sonic qualities was quite similar. How would you describe the differences when playing both and why did you go back to Pianoteq despite having the original digital grand?

The original Bechstein DG sounds gorgeous. To me it sounds more realistic, and more beautiful than the Pianoteq model of it. It plays also nicely out of the box, unlike many other sampled libraries that I tried.

*But*, I often switch back to Pianoteq because of practical reasons. I have a reasonably powerful laptop, but it is not powerful enough to play the BDG without glitches. I don't mind small occasional audio hiccups, but too often I get truncated sound especially when pedaling. I tried a more powerful laptop, and that works fine, but I don't want to sacrifice a 2.5k euro laptop just for playing with a nicer sound.

I now have Garritan CFX, which is much better in this respect, and I like the sound. But it has a looooooong loading time, especially because I have it on an external USB SSD drive. And then I need an external drive, more cables, stuff at my piano.

So in essence, I agree that Pianoteq does not sound the best of all options out there, but to me the sound is more than acceptable now. It sounds better than the samples of my digital ATX3 system, which is the best Kawai at the moment has. The same as in the NV10. In return for not having the best sound available, you have a very small footprint. You can play this literally on a raspberry pi (!), boots up in no time, finds my audio card + piano when woken up from sleep (unlike all my other VSTs), etc. Very playable out of the box. It is just very convenient and you don't need a very expensive computer to play without glitches.

I should say that I can live with the fact that the sound is not the very best, because with my silent piano I do have the acoustic option for the best sound.


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Originally Posted by FloRi89
You do realize that is true for every VST?

You mean we are unable to distinguish a recorded Steinway D sample from a recorded Yamaha CFX sample without having a logo on it?

Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
It would be interesting, maybe in a somewhat academic way, to see how close one Pianoteq instrument could be made to sound like another, using only the parameters available for the customer.

To me that tone generator (which sounds like a "Pianoteq" regardless of the preset) is just not that interesting in general.


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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by FloRi89
You do realize that is true for every VST?
You mean we are unable to distinguish a recorded Steinway D sample from a recorded Yamaha CFX sample without having a logo on it?

The same way you are unable to distinguish the PT Steinway D from the PT Bechstein without having a logo on it.

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