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I have a jazz theory book and I'm looking at the chord/scale relationship. I don't know if I'm understanding it correctly. It sais for a I maj7 chord you use the ionian, II min7 the dorian, III min 7 the phrigian, and so on.

So basically, if you pick chords from a given key, let's say C major, all those modes are just the notes of C major, just starting from another note?

Am i missing something?

That is right, it is not complicated

Thankyou very much.

But still there's something i don't understand.

In theory books, and also many musicians, say that you need to know the modes in order to know what notes you can use for soloing. For example last nighr i was watching this



And at certain point (sorry i can't find it now) he says Stan Getz didn't use the modal approach so he had to wait and listen what the others musicians were playing to know what notes to use.

If modes are just the major scale starting at other note, well then just knowing what key and chord you are, should be enough to know what notes to use.

What is then the advantage of using the modes?

It changes the relationships between the notes and creates interesting ways to play the notes.. For example, C and G have a different relationship in Ionian (Maj scale) vs. Aeolian (Natural min scale, aka the relative minor). In Ionian, C and G are I and V. In Aeolian, C and G become III and VII.

It's just a different way to look at the scale. If it's easier just think of them as Modes 1-7 and forget the greek names.

The construction of modes from the side steps of major scale is the simplest method for finding them. But this is only the initial stage - rough subordination; which in some situations is really unnecessary. For example, improvisation on 2 (Dorian.) - 5 (Mixo) -1 (Io) at a fast pace.
In addition, there is a subordination of pitches within the modes: organization into a scale-chord, and the resulting gravity between notes, gravitating towards the first and fifth steps of the modus.

Thankyou, now i understand the reason for modes. It is not so much about the notes themselves, but their different tonal functions when changing chords. Makes sense.

You guys are great!

There are different ways to choose notes for soloing, each has advantages and disadvantages…
- you can (as you mentioned) just play in the key of the tune
- you can choose a scale for each chord and use those notes
- you can use just the chord tones
- you can improvise off the original melody
- and about 300 other possible approaches
Ultimately you can use your ear to balance these approaches.

For example, if you are playing over Dm7 G7 Cmaj
you can think of C major as working over all thise chords
or you can think D dorian, Gmix, C maj for each chord
It is the same thing in a way, but one advantage of getting used to this scale-per-chord approach is it makes it easy to substitute in new more interesting scales.
You may want to play D dorian, G altered and C lydian for example. This kind of approach is very hard to describe without talking about the modes as a way of labelling the various scales.
It really comes into its own when dealing with more modern tunes where the relationship of the chords to functional harmony is much looser.

I think there is too much emphasis on modes in teaching improv.

An analogy that I use is that by focussing on modes to teach students how to improvise is like saying you can learn any language just by knowing the letters of the alphabet. The same letters are used in french, german and english but it is the WAY the letters are used that convey the meaning. Modes in an of themselves do not convey musical meaning any more than a string of letters spell a word.

Here's how to approach it: for straight ahead bebop language there are four elements:
1. chord tones on strong beats that are connected via
2. chord scales
3. arpeggios
4. and voice lead at chord changes through the use of approach patterns. (two to four note enclosures of the chord tones like chromatic from below, scale from above and the various combinations of those).

I have a free lesson (email address required to watch) that you can watch here for more detail:

https://www.jazzpianoonline.com/courses/improv-the-concept

Email me with any questions.

Ubu,

Others answered your question well.

To those answers I would add a couple things.

Aside from the fact that different modes have different tonal centers and the chord progressions are in a different order, both the half steps in the melody and the 3 half steps vs. 4 half steps in the intervals of both the triads and 7 chords fall in different areas as well when you are playing different modes.

This very much changes the sound and mood of a piece.

Since you mentioned the key of C, I'll go with that:

C Ionin aka C Major has a half step between the 3rd to 4th step as well as between the 7th and 8th steps. The pattern for the notes (C E G B) that make up the intervals of the C Major 7 chord is 4 half steps, 3 half steps, 4 half steps.

If you do the same for other modes (D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc...), the half steps and interval patterns will appear in a different order than in C Ionian and from each other. This will create a different mood in each mode.

For example, Ionian tends to sound very bright and happy. Phrygian tends to sound exotic to American ears or dark, gloomy, or even "evil". I love Phrygian...muahaha : )

Try taking a song written in C major and transcribe it or a part of it into each different mode. Good practice and you'll be amazed and delighted at how different it sounds in each different mode.

Hope that helps!

Stormbringer

I'm marginally qualified to add my two cents comparted to the company chiming in.

One important element is not to assume the ease in which they can be executed if you only think in the theoretical.

Maybe instead of practicing or thinking in say the key of C, work on playing all the modes from the note C and so forth.

Ubu,

Building on what 36251 was just saying, sure it seems almost overly simple and obvious that the modes of each scale step in the key of C are just the C major scale notes starting on a different note. But even that simple formula is a bit complicated for your brain to keep up with in real time, if you think about it. Sure, they are the same 7 notes, but they have different numbers assigned to them; the note "C" was degree 1 of the C Ionian scale, but it's the 7 of the D Dorian scale, and so on. So that's 7 x 7 + 49 different relationships to keep up with. Who reading this can quickly call out the 7 notes of the vii chord Locrian mode in the key of B, for instance? Then of course there is learning to play them all well. And so on.

The main thing to keep in mind is that just because the song is in a given key that doesn't mean it will only require modes for that key. Just as you can think of a song in a major key as a starting point for adding many accidentals, you can think of the modes as a beginning point. Soon there will be talk of borrowing chords from other modes, modal interchange, and the like. Plenty of complexity to come...

Before you can appreciate all of that it helps to nail down those modes, not just how they look but how they sound. It may look like the same 7 notes on the keyboard, but it matters in what order your ear hears them. Once your ear and your intellectual understanding match up and are able to reinforce each other, you'll see why modes are an important part of the language of jazz.

Is 'subordination' (I term I don't know) related to dominant function and the tension/resolution concept?

Maybe "rank" or "ranking"? You right about tension/resolution concept ; less about dominant function . Modal scale contains a number of unstable pitches and chords, but only one tonic function.The ratio of the missing functions are replaced by ratios of tensions and resolutions , dissonances and consonances.

The only thing I would say to OP's initial post is to focus on the tonicity-shift rather than the 'note-set'. Yep, all the same notes in III-phyrgian as I-ionian (maj scale).

However, I would expect a strong shift in tonicity (perhaps a bass note setting a strong tonic if solo piano, or the bass in a band) to emphasize the character of the new mode/chord. That's me. This stuff certainly has a functional or practical use that is different to each of us. So for me, modes are best when they are part of a strong shift that establishes a modal root.

For me, this idea is most useful as setting a point of embarkation for improvisational dalliances. Maybe from that III-phyrgian (if we started in C) I want to mentally shift what I'm doing into the key of E and play around with that a bit--or even pretend I'm hanging out in E-phyrgian just a little bit but my real goal is to end up with a powerful A-minor thing.

Or I want to hit E-phyrgian and morph it to E-dorian and then head back to D-major as my major/minor modulation. And then use my original C-maj and D-maj sounds as part of a I-II-V C-Lydian idea. Or instead of that, once I revert 'back' to D-major (from E-dorian) maybe I can make something out of B minor?

I'm not at a level where I can improvise this freely in the moment, but with practice it could happen.

Perhaps the best thing about modes is developing an intuitive knowledge of their flavor so that you might color your sound with that crayon.

How far off am I? This is all my own thinking on the subject, I have no formal training on it.

This is an interesting thread. I had similar the OP's questions on modes and find this conversation useful. Most of it is still over my head but it's a good heads up.

One question I have is this knowledge of theory more beneficial to a person that is playing with others? For a pianist that has no intention of playing with or for anyone else is this less beneficial? (I am not saying it isn't good to know but from a practical point of view.)

For me personally, and my 'playing with others' is rudimentary compared with real session musicians etc., it's useful as a practical matter both ways--solo playing and with others.

Solo improvisation, just messing around and making the instrument do musical things that are sometimes pleasing, it's great to have frameworks and structure within which you can select as you will.

With others, it will build the kind of awareness to go from simply 'what key is it in?' to being able to offer more tasteful or colorful ideas to the ensemble. My personal limitation is that the people I tend to play music with don't share my theory so I have to adapt to where they are. When I get excited about my idea for a C-Phyrgian/C#-Lydian song concept, their eyes kind of glaze over like they are listening to Charlie Brown's teacher.

REALLY THO...you don't need any theory at all, ever. The history of music is a good guide that you can play great music and not give a rat's about it (theory).

But I like it and think it's cool by itself. I like to get under the hood and see how things work sometimes.

It is also over mine. That's the reason I'm not writing much on this thread. But i appreciate very much all the answers. My initial question has been completely cleared.

Ubu: I'm a pretty experienced jazz player who knows a lot about modes, but even I don't understand some of the comments here!

I know an experienced jazz teacher who, to help beginning students play the first 5 bars of All The Things You Are, which have the chords F-7, Bb-7, Eb7, Abmaj7 and Dbmaj7, pointed out that those bars are all about Ab major, and as long as you use the Ab major scale you'll be fine. No need, at the outset, to think of it as F Aolian, Bb Dorian, Eb Mixolyidian, etc., as they all use the same notes as Ab major. There are, of course, many good reasons to later learn which modes go with those 5 chords, but as a starting point, Ab major works.

Each mode has a different mood and character, the exotic modes are very useful for film music composers or in some modern jazz tunes by the likes of Kenny Werner’s “Ballons” which is a series of Phrygian and Arolian modes. Wayne Shorter tunes also call upon the more exotic modes at times.
In straightahead jazz I mostly focus on Ionian Dorian and mixolydian.
When I’m doing film composition however I might need a brief mood section and turn to phrygian (tension) or Lydian (peaceful) or Aeolian (European old minor)

Melodic minor has a few useful modes for jazz too!