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#3098345 03/26/21 05:27 PM
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How do you convince kids that counting is important when they don't believe it? Some kids, I teach them how to count and they just . . . do it. Once in a while they run into a tricky rhythm that I have to work through with them, but most of the time they understand the idea of playing notes in time and on time.

And then there's others who look at me like I'm a nag and a drag when I tell them they actually have to count and not just memorize how they think the song is supposed to sound. Like, you have to actually keep track of the beat, even the partial beats, and make sure everything lands just when it's supposed to. I swear some have even rolled their eyes at me. Many have told me they "like to" just hear it and then mimic it rather than doing the work of counting.

I have a little student (nine years old) who just does not want to count. I spent a month correcting the same rhythm problems on a very simple song. I used every tool I have to help her think about the rhythm. I even made up words for the song and had her recite them with me to the rhythm. This was for a recital, so I really wanted her to get it right so she could feel proud of her performance. But the day before the recital, she was still playing both

HALF NOTE QUARTER QUARTER WHOLE (2 11 4)

and

REST QUARTER QUARTER QUARTER WHOLE ({ 111 4) (Pretend the face bracket is a rest. Haha.)

like

QUARTER QUARTER QUARTER QUARTER (1111)

Every single time. Over and over and over. And when I'd say, as nicely as I could, "Don't forget the rest! Don't forget to hold the half note!" she'd look like she was SO annoyed at me. And then she said,

"Do I have to count? Does it really matter?"

And I wanted to cry. I hate to admit that my tone was a bit louder than I try to keep it when I said, "YES! Yes, counting matters!" She's been with me for a year and a half and still doesn't think it matters?!!! I feel like with some students, every single lesson is me saying, "Okay, you have the notes. Now you need to count." Forever. I am patient. I help them think about rhythm. We clap it. We count out loud. We use a metronome. I play an octave below. I sing with them. I teach them to move to the beat, just a little, to mark it. Etc. Etc. Etc. But if a kid doesn't want to think about rhythm, I don't have any tools that fix that.

Do you? Do you just drop these students, or wait for them to get frustrated and quit? Because there's no future for a student who won't count, honestly.

Sorry for the rant. I just have about four or five of these students right now, and I feel like I'm failing them.


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The best remedy for string players is to stick them in an ensemble [that they want to be in and be a usefully contributing member of]. YES, timing counts! YES, if your beat is too fast or slow, your part will not be fitting in with the rest of the group! A right note (pitch) played at the wrong time is still wrong! If they are not currently in an ensemble (playing level or pandemic restrictions), the ensemble is still used as a carrot.

I don't know pianists do it, other than duets with the teacher, I guess. Piano students have worked with my string players in the past and the first thing they have to learn is that you must keep going if you mess up, do not stop to fix things, because the other players won't wait for you. I don't think I have students who refuse or think it doesn't matter but plenty who pay insufficient attention meaning they can do it but don't.

I certainly have some ways to *enforce rhythm practice* and intellectual ways to explain its importance and I'm sure you do too but if they just don't care, it's not you failing them. You can lead a horse to water...

Any chance of learning anything insightful by asking students why they think it "doesn't matter"?

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A decent substitution for pianists is, of course, the piano duet. If the duet with a teacher is nit appealing (it was to me as a kid!), how about getting a counter and a non-counter to play a duet together?

Another suggestion: I read about the duet book in the link below here on the forums as the composer is a PW member and bought my teacher a copy. It has QED codes imbedded, so the teacher’s part is linked to a recording. It can therefore let your non-counter play a ‘duet’ without a teacher present

‘Fairylands in Treble’

https://musica-ferrum.com/catalog/viewitem.php?show=61

Brinestone #3098421 03/26/21 09:54 PM
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Play along with someone as accompaniment or with a sound recording.

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I don't mind counting; I just count wrong. I can count wrong with a metronome. I haven't tried, but I assume I could count wrong in a box, with a fox, on a train, and in the rain...

I imagine this makes my teacher at least a little bit crazy.


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Brinestone #3098506 03/27/21 08:47 AM
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I just don't think these people really like piano enough to bother with the hard stuff, sightreading, counting. Odds are they don't want to be there, they'd rather be eating fried chicken. As a teacher, the harder job may well be how to instill a desire for music which crosses that effort threshold. If you've seen people eat fried chicken, the look in their eye, maniacal. If you can get a student to that point with music, then really the forces take over, and you just sit back and watch prodigy happen.

Last edited by EinLudov; 03/27/21 08:49 AM.
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I would throw out all the books for a month or whatever timeframe is fitting for the student and only do improvisational duets in the lesson. Let her play all quarter notes in her improvs if she likes. But give her a chance to hear you branching out into other rhythms in your playing. She will eventually want to try the interesting rhythmic motifs she's hearing in your playing, maybe without even realizing she's following your lead and exploring rhythms beyond playing the pulse.

Start with a chord progression where the chord changes every measure. Play your part with only quarter notes, four pulses per chord. After four or eight or twelve measures, change up your rhythm. Throw in some eighth notes on beat 3, for example, or whatever. Toss in one half note a few measures in a row. Change your bass line to dotted quarter / single eighth rhythm after a while. Switch from legato playing to putting a quarter rest on beat one followed by three staccato quarter notes.

I can almost guarantee you she won't stay stuck on playing only quarter notes when she hears the fun you're having with your interesting part.

Listen for the rhythmic variations she chooses during your improvisational collaboration, and tell her afterwards, "I loved this part when you did [approximate a rhythmic/melodic pattern she did that broke free from the ordinary]!" Write down on manuscript paper what that rhythm looks like, and how one counts it. Start a new improvisation that frequently incorporates that rhythm. Let her at-home assignment that week only be improvising new music each day that uses a combination of just that rhythm and quarter notes. She can change up the tempo, dynamics, articulations, keyboard location, tonality, etc. for variety.

Some of her improvisations could be a springboard to composing her own interesting music. Show her how to write what she played. Encourage her as she innovates.

Some time later, pull the books back out and have her find in the music where the rhythmic motifs she's explored through her improvisations occur in her books. Ask her why she believes the composer(s) of her music wrote their pieces the way they did. Would she make any changes if she had composed a piece with that title? Etc.

I find that regularly improvising together during lessons with all my students helps them with rhythmic stability and encourages creativity and variety. Kids who for whatever reason are not responding to what's on the printed page especially benefit from collaborative improv. Take away the visual for a time and focus only on the aural in a natural, organic way. I think your student might be persuaded without her knowing it that playing different rhythm patterns -- and knowing what they look like and how they're organized within the pulse -- is actually quite fun. smile

mostlystrings #3098723 03/27/21 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mostlystrings
The best remedy for string players is to stick them in an ensemble [that they want to be in and be a usefully contributing member of]. YES, timing counts! YES, if your beat is too fast or slow, your part will not be fitting in with the rest of the group! A right note (pitch) played at the wrong time is still wrong! If they are not currently in an ensemble (playing level or pandemic restrictions), the ensemble is still used as a carrot.

I don't know pianists do it, other than duets with the teacher, I guess. Piano students have worked with my string players in the past and the first thing they have to learn is that you must keep going if you mess up, do not stop to fix things, because the other players won't wait for you. I don't think I have students who refuse or think it doesn't matter but plenty who pay insufficient attention meaning they can do it but don't.

I certainly have some ways to *enforce rhythm practice* and intellectual ways to explain its importance and I'm sure you do too but if they just don't care, it's not you failing them. You can lead a horse to water...

Any chance of learning anything insightful by asking students why they think it "doesn't matter"?

This is my favorite remedy too, actually. I put beginners in duet festival every year mostly because it raises the stakes a little and allows kids to play together, which they think is fun but which forces them to count. Every year I have a partnership or two that isn't together the entire way through the song, but it's not a very prestigious competition anyway, and they always emerge on the other side better counters. Maybe not great, but better.


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Originally Posted by thepianoplayer416
Play along with someone as accompaniment or with a sound recording.


This particular student plays worse when I play the teacher parts, and she hates it when I do. I try to let her know that if she'll count it will sound pretty and together, but . . . well.


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EinLudov #3098726 03/27/21 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by EinLudov
I just don't think these people really like piano enough to bother with the hard stuff, sightreading, counting. Odds are they don't want to be there, they'd rather be eating fried chicken. As a teacher, the harder job may well be how to instill a desire for music which crosses that effort threshold. If you've seen people eat fried chicken, the look in their eye, maniacal. If you can get a student to that point with music, then really the forces take over, and you just sit back and watch prodigy happen.


You've hit the nail on the head. That said, I have a student right now who spent years hating piano, but his mom stubbornly refused to let him quit, and I questioned her judgment because lessons were painful for both him and me, and then he hit adolescence and suddenly took more pride in it and practices and now isn't great but is certainly passable and much more fun to teach. And he has joy in learning to play cool pieces and mastering difficult passages. So maybe those who aren't loving piano just need to grow up a little. And some of them never will. It's so hard to tell.


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Andamento #3098727 03/27/21 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Andamento
I would throw out all the books for a month or whatever timeframe is fitting for the student and only do improvisational duets in the lesson. Let her play all quarter notes in her improvs if she likes. But give her a chance to hear you branching out into other rhythms in your playing. She will eventually want to try the interesting rhythmic motifs she's hearing in your playing, maybe without even realizing she's following your lead and exploring rhythms beyond playing the pulse.

Start with a chord progression where the chord changes every measure. Play your part with only quarter notes, four pulses per chord. After four or eight or twelve measures, change up your rhythm. Throw in some eighth notes on beat 3, for example, or whatever. Toss in one half note a few measures in a row. Change your bass line to dotted quarter / single eighth rhythm after a while. Switch from legato playing to putting a quarter rest on beat one followed by three staccato quarter notes.

I can almost guarantee you she won't stay stuck on playing only quarter notes when she hears the fun you're having with your interesting part.

Listen for the rhythmic variations she chooses during your improvisational collaboration, and tell her afterwards, "I loved this part when you did [approximate a rhythmic/melodic pattern she did that broke free from the ordinary]!" Write down on manuscript paper what that rhythm looks like, and how one counts it. Start a new improvisation that frequently incorporates that rhythm. Let her at-home assignment that week only be improvising new music each day that uses a combination of just that rhythm and quarter notes. She can change up the tempo, dynamics, articulations, keyboard location, tonality, etc. for variety.

Some of her improvisations could be a springboard to composing her own interesting music. Show her how to write what she played. Encourage her as she innovates.

Some time later, pull the books back out and have her find in the music where the rhythmic motifs she's explored through her improvisations occur in her books. Ask her why she believes the composer(s) of her music wrote their pieces the way they did. Would she make any changes if she had composed a piece with that title? Etc.

I find that regularly improvising together during lessons with all my students helps them with rhythmic stability and encourages creativity and variety. Kids who for whatever reason are not responding to what's on the printed page especially benefit from collaborative improv. Take away the visual for a time and focus only on the aural in a natural, organic way. I think your student might be persuaded without her knowing it that playing different rhythm patterns -- and knowing what they look like and how they're organized within the pulse -- is actually quite fun. smile

WHOA. This entire post blew my mind. I love to improvise. Kids love to improvise. I tried it today, and I put her in F major and told her to play quarter notes and I would accompany what she did. She did great, and I think she loved it. Then I told her to do half notes, and she wasn't as thrilled by that, but she did it. (I did quarter notes in the accompaniment to help her feel the beat.) This will be part of her lesson every single week until I see improvement in her reading. THANK YOU FOR THE SUGGESTION!

I also have music composition software (both Finale and a lifetime subscription to flat.io, which I honestly like better for several reasons). I will have her play with transcribing rhythms she hears, I think. That's a great suggestion too!


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Brinestone #3098737 03/27/21 08:12 PM
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Here is my simple trick-

I say,
student, I am going to play a song you know by heart. I am going to play it two times. I want you to sing along, or say the words of you do not want to actually sing, both times.

I play Twinkle Twinkle or May Had a Little Lamb, the first time with perfect rhythm, but INCORRECT notes thrown here and there.

The child looks at me funny, knowing the song, and able to go along just fine, but wondering how and why the teacher messed up a few notes!

Oh,

I say, let me fix those notes.

I will play it the second time, with absolutely all the correct notes.

And I do, but with horrible rhythm. Long, quick, hold, pause, etc... totally correct notes, but wrong counting! wrong rhythm! wrong note values!

And sure enough, student is again confused, cuz now they are watching that I DID play all the correct notes on this simple melody.

Why, I ask them, are they confused? I played all the correct notes! Isn't that good enough?

Oh, counting, and note values, actually matter? Wow!


Sometimes I ask them to hum the melody of their song, sometimes while marching in place. Or I will ask them to conduct while I play.

But that first trick is one of my best.

I will add the improvise one. That sounds fun!


Learning as I teach.
Brinestone #3098754 03/27/21 09:19 PM
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I met a retired man who took up piano. Without any basic theory or even how to read, he learned a few pieces by watching online demos. He had no concept of a beat but played with a good sense of rhythm.

Not everybody including myself like to practice with the metronome in the background. You hear a mechanical ticking sound which can be distracting. I was in a music group before the lockdown. I'd make sound recordings and practice with the playback.

Get a student to count a piece properly once. Do a quick recording and get him/her to practice with the recording like playing with yourself in a duet.

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Andamento, that's awesome! One thing that always bothered me about piano methods was the seemingly strict reliance/adherence to reading and counting - yes those are necessary but what about the actual *music* which is not the printed paper but *sound* (and timing) that one must hear and feel separately from the printed paper - so I'm glad to be educated about actual, instead of theoretical, piano teaching.

My vague idea about teaching the relevance of rhythm was going to be using examples of pop songs or segments of pop songs that are recognized primarily by their rhythm instead of their melody. I know there could be interference from recognizing a song by its lyrics or distinctive harmony or percussive (rhythm again) from the non-melodic elements of the band, but the point would be that the timing is important. That's much less exciting than improvisation! (also, can't think of any specific examples at the moment)

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Every type of music including Pop, Jazz & Classical has a regular pulse. Learning to count can be mechanical in even ticks or the lengths of the notes. Get a student to take a pen and hit the table or clap your hands to show a regular pulse.

1 piece that came off my head is the Ravel Bolero. Listen to the light drum beat and get a student to tap along on the table.

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There are sometimes two related problems with rhythm.

One is the inability keep an internal pulse at all. That can get trained, but it's not easy for piano students, because as mentioned above they stop and fix things. And then there are a couple people I've worked with that just............well it's really hard for some people.

The other is the ability to decipher notation and apply counting to it. How do we count dotted quarter-eighth? Eighth-Quarter-eighth? I subdivide for people and explain, but really I don't believe that is how it is done. Certainly it's impossible at tempo for music I play. I'm pretty sure at higher levels people have memorized the feel of those rhythms by rote. For most genre's there is a fairly small and finite number of rhythms to learn, and they are best internalized by rote. It might seem counterintuitive to consider rote learning the more advanced level, but I believe that is how it is actually performed.

Yesterday I was part of a virtual rehearsal on JackTrip. That removes most of the latency but still the only way to stay together is to trust the click track. All of us are comfortable with metronomes and some of us record or perform live with click tracks, so it worked but required a lot of effort.


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Teachers (should) expect students to play the right notes, right rhythm, and right dynamics, and also the %$#@! pedaling while maintaining correct posture and body positioning as well as breathing and stuff like that.

Please remember to give your students partial credit when we get some of those things in place. That's why we pay you the big bucks. wink


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Originally Posted by TimR
The other is the ability to decipher notation and apply counting to it. How do we count dotted quarter-eighth? Eighth-Quarter-eighth? I subdivide for people and explain, but really I don't believe that is how it is done. Certainly it's impossible at tempo for music I play. I'm pretty sure at higher levels people have memorized the feel of those rhythms by rote. For most genre's there is a fairly small and finite number of rhythms to learn, and they are best internalized by rote. It might seem counterintuitive to consider rote learning the more advanced level, but I believe that is how it is actually performed.

With the beginner, they're learning to read sheet music. They can perform very complex pieces by memory alone, but a person such as this will have much slower uptake of music overall especially into the intermediate lvl.

It's the difference between giving a man a fish and teaching a man to fish.

Last edited by EinLudov; 03/28/21 09:49 AM.
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Originally Posted by TimR
. . .
One is the inability keep an internal pulse at all. That can get trained, but it's not easy for piano students, because as mentioned above they stop and fix things. And then there are a couple people I've worked with that just............well it's really hard for some people.

The other is the ability to decipher notation and apply counting to it. How do we count dotted quarter-eighth? Eighth-Quarter-eighth? I subdivide for people and explain, but really I don't believe that is how it is done. Certainly it's impossible at tempo for music I play. I'm pretty sure at higher levels people have memorized the feel of those rhythms by rote. For most genre's there is a fairly small and finite number of rhythms to learn, and they are best internalized by rote. It might seem counterintuitive to consider rote learning the more advanced level, but I believe that is how it is actually performed.

(a) I agree -- just as some people are "tone deaf" (that is, they don't hear and distinguish "pitch" well), some people are "rhythm deaf" (they lack a sense of "pulse", and can't do subdivisions well, and can't easily hear the difference between two similar rhythms).

In drum circles, you occasionally get someone who doesn't understand (or can't hear) how to "keep the beat". They generally learn that, eventually. Those rhythm-deaf people don't gravitate toward drumming -- but they might try to play piano.

(b) Yes, I agree completely. "sight-reading rhythms" is like "sight-reading notes" --

. . . you develop a vocabulary of rhythm patterns that you can recognize _as a whole_,
. . . and play without thinking about them.

So you might be fine with reading Mozart and Beethoven, and somebody gives you a piece with lots of syncopations and interesting sub-divisions of quarter-notes --

. . . and it's back to "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" until you learn the new patterns.

That's been my experience, anyway.


. Charles
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Charles Cohen #3099252 03/29/21 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
[quote=TimR] . . .
So you might be fine with reading Mozart and Beethoven, and somebody gives you a piece with lots of syncopations and interesting sub-divisions of quarter-notes --

. . . and it's back to "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" until you learn the new patterns.

That's been my experience, anyway.

With patterns like that I like an electronic metronome with a clearly distinct beat one, because then each measure you get a check on whether you are still correct.

This weekend we played one piece in a fast three or slow one, where measures vary between duple feel and triple constantly. That was the hardest piece to do virtually, because both click track and the other musicians end up being equally important. Our click track didn't change for beat one.


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