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Wow !!!!

I never realized I was involving myself in such a highly charged topic.

Here is where it all began ....


Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I don't think muscle memory would be very significant without aural memory. If I learned and practiced a piece on a digital with the sound off, it would be very difficult to learn, and I don't think I would be able to play it from memory unless I was able to hear the music in my mind very well just by looking at the score. My guess is that muscle plus aural memory are the biggest components of memory for most people. Just a theory. What do you think?


Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

Seemed simple to me ...

Pianoloverus was stating that he thought muscle memory and aural memory were the biggest components of memory for most people in the process of learning a piece of music on a digital.

Iaroslav says he is sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory.

That sounds (to me) that Iaroslav thinks it is more important to be able to SEE (visual) than to HEAR (aural) when trying to learn to play a piece of music on a digital.

I disagreed.

Where did I go wrong here ?


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Originally Posted by dmd
[...]
That sounds (to me) that Iaroslav thinks it is more important to be able to SEE (visual) than to HEAR (aural) when trying to learn to play a piece of music on a digital.

[..]

Why digital, specifically? Doesn't the question pertain equally to an acoustic piano?

Regards,


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Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by dmd
[...]
That sounds (to me) that Iaroslav thinks it is more important to be able to SEE (visual) than to HEAR (aural) when trying to learn to play a piece of music on a digital.

[..]

Why digital, specifically? Doesn't the question pertain equally to an acoustic piano?

Regards,

I wanted to be very precise so as not to leave an opening for accusation of making a "straw man argument".


Don

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Originally Posted by dmd
Wow !!!!

I never realized I was involving myself in such a highly charged topic.

Here is where it all began ....


Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I don't think muscle memory would be very significant without aural memory. If I learned and practiced a piece on a digital with the sound off, it would be very difficult to learn, and I don't think I would be able to play it from memory unless I was able to hear the music in my mind very well just by looking at the score. My guess is that muscle plus aural memory are the biggest components of memory for most people. Just a theory. What do you think?


Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

Seemed simple to me ...

Pianoloverus was stating that he thought muscle memory and aural memory were the biggest components of memory for most people in the process of learning a piece of music on a digital.

Iaroslav says he is sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory.

That sounds (to me) that Iaroslav thinks it is more important to be able to SEE (visual) than to HEAR (aural) when trying to learn to play a piece of music on a digital.

I disagreed.

Where did I go wrong here ?
Did you read my and Iaroslav's comments about your post? In your original post and even on this post you substituted "learn" for "memorize"? Iarolslav was talking about memorizing a piece which is not the same as learning a piece.

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Visual Aural Muscle , all 3 are involved. Not sure why there's an argument over which is more important or dominant.

You can play close intervals blind, but large jumps are unreliable.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Did you read my and Iaroslav's comments about your post? In your original post and even on this post you substituted "learn" for "memorize"? Iarolslav was talking about memorizing a piece which is not the same as learning a piece.

LOL ....

Can you possibly imagine how silly it sounds to say .... memorizing a piece is not the same as learning a piece.

LOL ..... laugh

And ... BTW.... I did not SUBSTITUTE anything .... the OP used the term Learn and so did you.

I did not realize I had to be careful with the difference between learning and memorizing a piece of music.

This will be my last post on the topic.

I know, now .... logic will not win this argument. Only perseverance.

So ... go ahead wrap it up for us.


Don

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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Did you read my and Iaroslav's comments about your post? In your original post and even on this post you substituted "learn" for "memorize"? Iarolslav was talking about memorizing a piece which is not the same as learning a piece.

LOL ....

Can you possibly imagine how silly it sounds to say .... memorizing a piece is not the same as learning a piece.

LOL ..... laugh

And ... BTW.... I did not SUBSTITUTE anything .... the OP used the term Learn and so did you.

I did not realize I had to be careful with the difference between learning and memorizing a piece of music.

This will be my last post on the topic.

I know, now .... logic will not win this argument. Only perseverance.

So ... go ahead wrap it up for us.
What word the OP used is irrelevant. You quoted and commented in a critical tone on Iaroslav's post, not on the OP's post. Iaroslav agreed with me that your post was illogical because it used "learn" when he was talking about memorization. Your specific comments about the importance of aural skills in learning music had nothing to do with memorization.

How is it possible to not understand learning and memorizing are different?

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/26/21 08:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Did you read my and Iaroslav's comments about your post? In your original post and even on this post you substituted "learn" for "memorize"? Iarolslav was talking about memorizing a piece which is not the same as learning a piece.

LOL ....

Can you possibly imagine how silly it sounds to say .... memorizing a piece is not the same as learning a piece.

LOL ..... laugh

And ... BTW.... I did not SUBSTITUTE anything .... the OP used the term Learn and so did you.

I did not realize I had to be careful with the difference between learning and memorizing a piece of music.

This will be my last post on the topic.

I know, now .... logic will not win this argument. Only perseverance.

So ... go ahead wrap it up for us.
What word the OP used is irrelevant. You quoted and commented in a critical tone on Iaroslav's post, not on the OP's post. Iaroslav agreed with me that your post was illogical because it used "learn" when he was talking about memorization. Your specific comments about the importance of aural skills in learning music had nothing to do with memorization.

How is it possible to not understand learning and memorizing are different?


How is it not possible that you can’t let this go? DMD already declared you the winner.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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Originally Posted by dogperson
How is it not possible that you can’t let this go? DMD already declared you the winner.

They be slinging disrespect, now it's a fight to the death.

I vote everyone involved tape themselves playing 176 key chromatic scale, fastest time wins. laugh

Last edited by EinLudov; 03/26/21 08:41 PM.
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Originally Posted by dmd
And ... BTW.... I did not SUBSTITUTE anything ....

I have to say you did.
Originally Posted by dmd
So ..... for learning to play piano music, you think losing your hearing would be less significant than losing your sight.

You think you could learn to play music without being able to hear.
Firstly you substituted hearing for aural memory. These are different things. The former is the ability to hear sounds, the latter is the ability to remember exactly what sounds you heard and in what order. Secondly you substituted 'learning to play piano music' for 'learning/memorizing a piece'. There was no word 'piece' in your comment. That's why I consider that you distorted the meaning of my post.

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OK, now I see clearly the answer to my original question: muscle memory is what triggers an unexpected fight between members of PianoWorld frown

I am sorry to have generated so much debate.

Please, end this thread. Thanks!


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Originally Posted by dmd
Iaroslav says he is sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory.

That sounds (to me) that Iaroslav thinks it is more important to be able to SEE (visual) than to HEAR (aural) when trying to learn to play a piece of music on a digital.

I disagreed.

Where did I go wrong here ?

Because Iaroslav was specifically talking about the ability to memorize aurally a piece. From there you generalized to the respective importance of hearing and visualizing when learning to play a piece, but that is a different topic. No one is arguing that hearing is important. The comment was about how people memorize pieces which is different from what senses people use to learn to play.

The example of blind pianists is not completely satisfactory as what is important is how they represent the piece in their memory. Is it by a sequence of notes or pitches or by some other way. In general, aural memory is for most people, very weak and unreliable, except for those that have an exceptionally developped skill.

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Originally Posted by EB5AGV
OK, now I see clearly the answer to my original question: muscle memory is what triggers an unexpected fight between members of PianoWorld frown

I am sorry to have generated so much debate.

Please, end this thread. Thanks!
I'm sorry that this situation spoiled your thread. It's absolutely not your fault. It's probably mine.

I'm sure there is no need to end this interesting thread. It seems things got clarified now and the topic discussion may continue peacefully.

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By the way I watched an interesting story on TV about a pianist who read scientific report stating that stress increases the amount of information we memorize. He decided to test it out and to have a cold shower immediately after every memorization session. He said the results were very good.
I think it was on the Discovery channel.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
By the way I watched an interesting story on TV about a pianist who read scientific report stating that stress increases the amount of information we memorize. He decided to test it out and to have a cold shower immediately after every memorization session. He said the results were very good.
I think it was on the Discovery channel.

Interesting but I guess will pass on that method! crazy


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Originally Posted by EB5AGV
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
By the way I watched an interesting story on TV about a pianist who read scientific report stating that stress increases the amount of information we memorize. He decided to test it out and to have a cold shower immediately after every memorization session. He said the results were very good.
I think it was on the Discovery channel.

Interesting but I guess will pass on that method! crazy
Lol... laugh

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