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Don’t forget analytical
It doesn’t need to be theory based to be included in my definition of analytical; it could be something simple like ‘changes to minor key next measure’, ‘next measure one octave higher’ prompt


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I don't think muscle memory would be very significant without aural memory. If I learned and practiced a piece on a digital with the sound off, it would be very difficult to learn, and I don't think I would be able to play it from memory unless I was able to hear the music in my mind very well just by looking at the score. My guess is that muscle plus aural memory are the biggest components of memory for most people. Just a theory. What do you think?

Yes, it is all part of the total package.

If you do not hear what you expect to hear, that will confuse you "break" the sequence of events leading to your mind losing its way.

That same thing happens if you do not see what you expect to see. I know that when I play scales with both hands, if I look at the hand I normally do not look at .... the process breaks down and I make errors.

It is all part of the total recall package.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
... My guess is that muscle plus aural memory are the biggest components of memory for most people. Just a theory. What do you think?

Yes, I would go along with this too. But, as Robert points out in the video, there is still left the issue of managing the overall performance, of what goes where and what section will follow this section. So, to some degree this is the form and analysis, but it only needs to be high level as too much detail here I think could detract from these other components, which are main ones.

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Off topic: if our brains were so simple that we could understand them, then we would be too dumb to understand them.

Muscle-memory is just memory of movements without conscious thought. I do not aspire to completely understand the functioning of the memory and the brain. Just enough of it for me to be able to play the piano.

Virtuoso passages are mostly played from muscle memory, because conscious memory (and sight-reading) is much slower.

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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Animisha
How would you explain learning this whole complicated pattern?

This is the question I am waiting for an answer to.

It would seem to me that "somewhere" the brain is storing a series of muscle movements and given the right signal, will execute that series of movements.

The programs for muscle movements themselves are stored largely in your spine and brainstem, not in your brain. The brain then codes for series/patterns of activations, through multiple hierarchical levels, of these motor circuits in the spine. The latter is achieved by different parts of the brain, motor cortices, cerebellum and basal ganglia. Skill memory in particular is associated with the cerebellum (the red part of this animation). It is complicated smile

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I don't think muscle memory would be very significant without aural memory. If I learned and practiced a piece on a digital with the sound off, it would be very difficult to learn, and I don't think I would be able to play it from memory unless I was able to hear the music in my mind very well just by looking at the score. My guess is that muscle plus aural memory are the biggest components of memory for most people. Just a theory. What do you think?
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

So ..... for learning to play piano music, you think losing your hearing would be less significant than losing your sight.

You think you could learn to play music without being able to hear.

I think I have to differ with you on that.

I know there are numerous blind piano players.

I have never heard of a piano player that could not hear.


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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

So ..... for learning to play piano music, you think losing your hearing would be less significant than losing your sight.

You think you could learn to play music without being able to hear.

I think I have to differ with you on that.

I know there are numerous blind piano players.

I have never heard of a piano player that could not hear.
The thread topic is about memorization, not learning music.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

So ..... for learning to play piano music, you think losing your hearing would be less significant than losing your sight.

You think you could learn to play music without being able to hear.

I think I have to differ with you on that.

I know there are numerous blind piano players.

I have never heard of a piano player that could not hear.
The thread topic is about memorization, not learning music.


Isn’t this just normal thread drift? Conversation about what sense is important for memorization (your question), expands to which sense is important for playing. .. the argument being that they are related conclusions.

For memorizing: I vote for sight being used more
For retaining a sense: I vote for keeping hearing

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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

So ..... for learning to play piano music, you think losing your hearing would be less significant than losing your sight.

You think you could learn to play music without being able to hear.
I think your summary of my thoughts is a little bit ... inaccurate. laugh

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

So ..... for learning to play piano music, you think losing your hearing would be less significant than losing your sight.

You think you could learn to play music without being able to hear.
I think your summary of my thoughts is a little bit ... inaccurate. laugh

In what way ?


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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

So ..... for learning to play piano music, you think losing your hearing would be less significant than losing your sight.

You think you could learn to play music without being able to hear.

I think I have to differ with you on that.

I know there are numerous blind piano players.

I have never heard of a piano player that could not hear.
The thread topic is about memorization, not learning music.


Isn’t this just normal thread drift?
Not at all. Vasiliev's comment related to memorizing music. Dmd quoted that comment and then disagreed with it by talking about what's needed to learn music.. a totally different subject. Vasiliev didn't talk about learning music but dmd's response made it sound like he did. If dmd had said what he did without quoting Vasiliev then his post would have been thread drift.

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Don’t forget analytical
It doesn’t need to be theory based to be included in my definition of analytical; it could be something simple like ‘changes to minor key next measure’, ‘next measure one octave higher’ prompt
I strongly agree with this. Repeats, changes in a pattern or shifts to a different rhythm etc. are all analyzed and memorized and give me mental cues, which is different from aural or visual memory.

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Originally Posted by pianogabe
The programs for muscle movements themselves are stored largely in your spine and brainstem, not in your brain. The brain then codes for series/patterns of activations, through multiple hierarchical levels, of these motor circuits in the spine. The latter is achieved by different parts of the brain, motor cortices, cerebellum and basal ganglia. Skill memory in particular is associated with the cerebellum (the red part of this animation). It is complicated smile
Thank you Pianogabe! However, it sounds very unlikely to me that the memory of this complicated sequence of movements that we perform when playing a piece that we have practised well, would be in a primitive brain part such as the cerebellum.


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Me to Plover

Isn’t this just normal thread drift?
[/quote Plover ]Not at all. Vasiliev's comment related to memorizing music. Dmd quoted that comment and then disagreed with it by talking about what's needed to learn music.. a totally different subject. Vasiliev didn't talk about learning music but dmd's response made it sound like he did. If dmd had said what he did without quoting Vasiliev then his post would have been thread drift.[/quote]

Me:

I don’t agree with you as I think DMD was trying to illustrate why aural is more important to him in memorizing. But it really shouldn’t matter: once any of us starts a thread, unless the topic turns into something prohibited, we have no control over where the topic goes. We don’t own any topic.


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Originally Posted by dogperson
I don’t agree with you as I think DMD was trying to illustrate why aural is more important to him in memorizing. But it really shouldn’t matter: once any of us starts a thread, unless the topic turns into something prohibited, we have no control over where the topic goes. We don’t own any topic.

I agree. As the OP of this topic, for me there is no problem about the drift, as anyway the final aim is to understand how different kinds of memory work in order to play.

So thank you all for your comments!

Jose


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Originally Posted by dogperson
Me to Plover

Isn’t this just normal thread drift?
[/quote Plover ]Not at all. Vasiliev's comment related to memorizing music. Dmd quoted that comment and then disagreed with it by talking about what's needed to learn music.. a totally different subject. Vasiliev didn't talk about learning music but dmd's response made it sound like he did. If dmd had said what he did without quoting Vasiliev then his post would have been thread drift.


Me:

I don’t agree with you as I think DMD was trying to illustrate why aural is more important to him in memorizing. But it really shouldn’t matter: once any of us starts a thread, unless the topic turns into something prohibited, we have no control over where the topic goes. We don’t own any topic.[/quote]dmd's post didn't include the word memorizing even once. He specifically said "learning" although he was rather harshly commenting on a post purely about memorizing. If dmd had said what he did without quoting Vasiliev then his post would have been normal thread drift.

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Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by dmd
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
I'm sure for most people visual memory is more important than aural memory. Aural memory helps best with remembering rhythm, articulation, dynamics, but remembering keys aurally in faster pieces requires excellent inborn pitch or very many years of training, it's not as widespread as visual memorization.

So ..... for learning to play piano music, you think losing your hearing would be less significant than losing your sight.

You think you could learn to play music without being able to hear.

I think I have to differ with you on that.

I know there are numerous blind piano players.

I have never heard of a piano player that could not hear.
I think your summary of my thoughts is a little bit ... inaccurate. laugh
In what way ?
In every way, in fact. What you posted is called a "straw man argument" in English. And in Russian it's called "thesis falsification".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
It's a pretty dirty discussion trick. 👎 In no way I was suggesting that someone could learn to play the piano and become a pianist without being able to hear. I'm puzzled what words of mine could lead you to this wild idea.

We were talking about memorization. That is, the process of recording a piece into memory in order to be able to play it precisely from memory without the score later. I have written that memorizing music aurally is much more difficult than memorizing it visually, at least for not simple pieces, and that according to my observations most people rely on visual memory more than on aural memory, including me. I can get a page of an advanced piece that I've never heard before, lie down on a sofa and after some (hard) time of memorization play it precisely from memory, totally lacking any aural memory of it. And most people can do it, too, with some practice. But if I never saw the score, even if I heard that piece many times, I would struggle to play it from aural memory, despite the countless hours spent on ear training, and I'm sure that I'll make mistakes in it. Certainly there are people who could do it, like Rachmaninoff for example, and some others, but still it's a rare thing even among musicians. Most people memorize notes visually. I hope now you understand what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by dogperson
Isn’t this just normal thread drift?
Not at all. Vasiliev's comment related to memorizing music. Dmd quoted that comment and then disagreed with it by talking about what's needed to learn music.. a totally different subject. Vasiliev didn't talk about learning music but dmd's response made it sound like he did. If dmd had said what he did without quoting Vasiliev then his post would have been thread drift.
Thank you, pianoloverus.

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I agree with you, Iaroslav that visualization plays an important part and see what you mean that this could even be more prevalent than the aural part, depending on how well the latter is developed.

What I don't really get though, and maybe just because I have never tried to rely on this cue, is the visualization of the score. By memorizing we can eliminate the score, which is really an extra step. I mean you need to interpret the score and then translate that to what it should look like, sound like and feel like on the keyboard. Yet, we are adding back in.

When you say you can study and actually memorizie a score away from the piano and then actually able to play it from memory, it starts to make sense to me, but I would think it is since you have developed your reading to a point where you can translate it relatively easily to how it looks, feels and sounds on the keyboard. Otherwise, like for a complex and long score you would need near photographic memory, wouldn't you? The 3 cues alone are enough to guide what comes next, so you never have to worry about remembering what it looks like on the page.

I mean, absolutely utilize your strengths, but visualizing and actually memorizing a complete score seems like too much for most. Me included.

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Originally Posted by Greener
I agree with you, Iaroslav that visualization plays an important part and see what you mean that this could even be more prevalent than the aural part, depending on how well the latter is developed.

What I don't really get though, and maybe just because I have never tried to rely on this cue, is the visualization of the score. By memorizing we can eliminate the score, which is really an extra step. I mean you need to interpret the score and then translate that to what it should look like, sound like and feel like on the keyboard. Yet, we are adding back in.

When you say you can study and actually memorizie a score away from the piano and then actually able to play it from memory, it starts to make sense to me, but I would think it is since you have developed your reading to a point where you can translate it relatively easily to how it looks, feels and sounds on the keyboard. Otherwise, like for a complex and long score you would need near photographic memory, wouldn't you? The 3 cues alone are enough to guide what comes next, so you never have to worry about remembering what it looks like on the page.

I mean, absolutely utilize your strengths, but visualizing and actually memorizing a complete score seems like too much for most. Me included.
Unfortunately I have no photographic memory, too, I can't visualize the whole score and play from it like it was physically in front of me, usually I can remember only some parts of the score visually. What I rely on mostly is visualization of the keyboard keys. When I read the score for the purpose of memorization I translate graphical score notes into the mental image of keyboard keys that must be played. I also imagine my hands playing these notes and imagine physical sensations associated with it. Sometimes if I memorize away from the piano (though I don't like it really) I move my fingers like I'm playing, to imagine and remember it more vividly. And this way, by memorizing keyboard keys and my hands playing them, I can remember precisely very long and complicated pieces. I think that practicing both score visualization and keyboard visualization gives best results. It's a widespread method indeed, for example Horowitz used to say that he never came on stage before he memorized visually both the score and the keyboard keys reliably. Aural memory is supplementary for me. I can play some simple and short intermediate pieces from aural memory, but nothing more advanced, and I've never relied on aural memory when playing for public, I know that my aural memory is just not good enough for it.

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