Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Minimizing WD40 damages

I have to agree, plus it stinks!

I tried out your recommendation, but could not improve anything. I probably will give up. Is this ancommon problem? I do have on both of my petrofs. Nothing helps.

Walkman,

Have you tried adjusting the backchecks so as to catch the hammer a little closer to the strings? Or, are the backchecks even doing their thing (catching the backstop) or are they bouncing off?

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

You can do a little more observation to see what is leading to this symptom. It sounds like it happens mostly when you play softly? (the tech recommendation to play deeper) Try to determine if the jack is getting all the way out from under the butt when it bobbles. If not, then the earlier letoff would be one way to help.

If you can't feel any movement in the key after the jack releases, (aftertouch) then you might want to try reducing the blow distance. (distance from hammer to strings at rest) This is most easily done (and reversible) by shimming the hammer rest rail up a little with felt or leather and then adjusting the capstans to just have a tiny bit of lost motion.

It becomes a balancing act between too wide of a let-off and deeper aftertouch - and loss of control of the hammer to the string for sensitive playing.

Good luck!

Ron Koval

Thank you all.

The problem is the following:
The key dip I observed has 3 parts. 1. When you press the key until the jack reaches the butt to start the hammer moving (this part is kept to minimum or is non existent) 2. When the jack lifts up together with the hammerbutt 3. When the jack comes out of the hammerbutt ( is it what is called aftertouch?)
When I press the key during soft playing so that I do not go all the way into the key ( the jack has not esacaped from the hammerbutt) the hammerbutts bounce on the jack and hit the strings back.
I could only eliminate this problem when I regulated the letoff button so that the jack esacapes from earlier, but this resklted in a huge letoff - 3cm (more than an inch), rather than the usual mm-s recommended.

Here is the video demonstration. G is regulated so that the hammers d9nt strike the strings again, but the let off is huge. G sharp is not regulated and let off is ok but when pressed softly it bounces on the jack. There is no problem when it is played softly but deeply into the key dip.

I try not to use lubricants at all on pianos, especially on wood, but what damage specifically have you seen WD40 do? What lubricants to you know are safer? All we have to go on is your word, which sounds like a rant. If you do not give any specific information, why should anyone follow your advice?

Walkman, could you tell us these measurements? The keydip and the hammer (at rest) to strings.

And looking at your video I think maybe, maybe your backchecks need attention. I just catch a glimpse of them later in the video and they are not in a straight line. The g sharp seems to set too far back to me you could try taking the backcheck closer to the hammer butt...but it's a subtle adjustment, not just of position but of angle as well. I think there is scope to check closer to the strings which might stop the butt sitting back on the jack. But it may take you a while to get the feel for this adjustment.

Nick

Walkman, your number 3) is called "set-off", not aftertouch.

I wonder if you are confusing set-off and chacking distances.

Set off happens closer to the strings in a (well-regulated) grand than can be achieved in an upright. Pressing the key slowly, watch the hammer move towards the strings. It should stop moving forward (because of set-off) at 3-5mm.

When you strike the key firmly, the hammer rebounds and the "catcher" ("balance hammer in UK terminology) is caught on the backcheck. That sould happen with the hammer around 15mm from the strings, approximately.

For your Number 1) above, there should be virtually no movement of the key before the jack starts to push the hammer butt. "Lost motion" here is a major cause of bobbling.

There are a couple of videos about lubricating center pins with Fomblin, from Supply88:

WD-40 is not a true lubricant rather it is a water displacer.The lubricant-like properties of WD-40 come not from the substance itself, but from dissolving components. An interesting article i read mentions that WD-40 is hygroscopic and will attract moisture which I found interesting. On pianos WD-40 may work temporarily. However, It dries sticky and attracts dirt and dust. It also hardens the flange felt. It basically creates more problems long term. I have never found a piano that was treated with WD-40 in the action that didn't have worse problems then before. You asked for choices of lubricants. One I use is protek CLP. That's my go to. There are others. Even that many times is temporary and the piano needs to be repined. Many times lubricants tend to be temporary fixes, but not always. I hope that answers your questions. What I gave was not a rant, but setting the record straight due to some poor advice from a vocal minority. WD-40 on a piano action is a No NO.

I said that your post sounded like a rant. You then provided a better response, with your objections. But really, if there are other good lubricants, either say what they are, or just recommend what you use. These posts are read by some people who might be inclined to experiment. There are way too many posts in this area that do not give enough information to keep amateurs out of trouble.

To anyone who wants to experiment, do it on a junk action. But as I said, I rarely use any lubricants. The friction from wearing in an action is the best lubricant!

The hammer rest position is measured at 53 mm from the strings. The key dip is 12mm.
Another video

I just realized in tenor section its less at 48mm. Seems like strings are deeper in trebĺe than in tenor section.

Jltuning, you need to select your reading matter more carefully. You state that wd is a water displacer.
Can a water displacer be hygroscopic? No. How could it be? The confusion comes from an old theory that WD displaced by attracting water into itself then running off. Actually wd drives the water off. It's a water repellant.
If it attracted water it would cause rust. I have personally tested it over a year (as detailed in one of my posts) and it was actually the only product that completely prevented rust forming on piano wire.
Actually, wd doesn't dry sticky. Simple to test. Interestingly Protek clp which you recommend, does dry sticky. Another easy test.
So much misinformation...I don't think you can legitimately call that "setting the record straight" when actually you are clouding the waters.
Be honest, it's simply prejudice.
I agree with you that no lubricant or anything is as good as a properly fitted replacement centre.
Nick

I quoted an article that was not related to pianos because I thought that was interesting. It was a lifehacker article, when not to use WD-40 I believe. A quick google search would bring it up for you. Obviously I do not know the sources used nor have the time to verify them. However, what i do know is that In my experiance WD-40 dries sticky. Of course in thinking about it the stickiness could be the oily residue combined with dirt and dust. So maybe on a clean service with out dust it wouldn't be sticky. Of course as we know, pianos NEVER get dusty. (sarcasm)Protek CLP does Not dry sticky. The fact you said that really calls into question everything you just said. Yes, I have tested it. It dried non sticky. I honestly question if you have ever used it. You accuse me of prejudice yet you seem to be extremely emotionally invested in using WD-40 when other lubricants will do the exact same thing with no risk of damaging the piano. So who is actually prejudiced. However I am done argueing this point. Anybody who reads this can make up there own mind. If they are unsure of who to listen to I reccomend checking out past discussions on this subject in both this board and the ptg board. Also to Google the topic. Dont just take my or one other techs word for it. See what the majority of other techs say. In addition look at what is said in piano literature such as "Pianos Inside Out" by Mario Igrec. Hint, he says in the book not to use it on wood felt or leather. However dont just take my word for it. Do your research. In the end, though, its better to do nothing then the wrong thing. So research, research research.This is of course unless it is something that is easily reversible, you are using a junk piano or one you do not care about.

I agree. That was an oversight on my part. I was in a hurry when I posted and didn't go into enough details or provide enough information.


I couldn't agree more. In fact when protek does work best I feel it is more as a bridge to allow the piano to be played and friction to take over. Case In point, just today I tuned a piano that I put Protek CLP on about 6 months ago. When I tuned it 6 months ago it was in good shape, but hadnt been serviced in about 5 years. The children were about to start piano lessons on it so they wanted it tuned up and playable. I did just that and used protek on some sticking notes. Today everything was working beautifully. However, the piano is being played regularly since the children practice at least once a day. It is my belief that it was the friction from use that made the hammers loosen up. The Protek just bridged the gap and allowed that use to take place.

There are a few rust prevention videos on YouTube and WD-40 may slow it down, but doesn't prevent it. It may displace water in liquid form but doesn't seem to work in vapor form (i.e. humidity). As a lubricant, there are safer alternatives, though they might not be cheaper.

Hi JLtuning,
I like your reply. Like you, I'm done talking about wd asit seems to provoke emotional reactions.
I will just say though that I have not shown any emotional investment in the product. Like you, I use protek actually.
If you read my earlier posts you will see that I make it clear that I don't actually use wd40 in pianos.
What I've been suggesting is that there has never been presented any evidence that it does all this "harrm".
When I asked for anyone's actual bad experiences, the only posts that came back were of good experiences!
Then, I think, you claimed it caused rust! Which I know it does not. I've used wd40 extensively in classic car maintenance and done some actual experiments with various rust retardants and wd was the best. It also has no bad affect on wood, which is why we use it on wooden framed cars.
It seems to me that the emotional investment is in keeping protek as the only treatment when a good tool box contains many different tools for different situations.
I never intended to offend anyone, I only asked a few questions regarding evidence... I'm just surprised at the defensive responses.
That's enough from me anyway, all my comments are only my opinion, I'm not trying to force anyone to agree with me.
Nick

Thank you N W for pointing out the rust prevention properties of WD. I will obtain an aerosol for use on my estate car which I hope one day will be considered a classic.