2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
52 members (accordeur, anotherscott, Asperatology, ambrozy, butchkoch, Alex Hutor, BlakeOR, 11 invisible), 513 guests, and 564 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted by Maestro Lennie
Probably works best for something expensive and rare, like a Steingraeber or Bluthner. Not a lot of inventory over here, so you're talking about special orders in many cases.

Wasn't planning on spending anything more than around $60,000 so I don't think that qualifies, within the context of this discussion, as expensive and rare.


You might be surprised what $60k will get you in Europe.

It's been reported here that Sauter will deal with U.S. buyers directly.

Also, I think that there are more economical ways to ship than air freight. Most pianos travel on ships, if I'm not mistaken.


How to Upload Pictures
“If it sounds good, it IS good.” ― Duke Ellington!



Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,367
2000 Post Club Member
OP Online Blank
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,367
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
we ended up getting an Audi, and didn't do anything special for it. We just bought it domestically.

Before posting earlier, I google'd to double-check, and some links said that Audi had also canceled their European pickup option too. I think it said in '18.


Quote
I was just wondering if perhaps the piano manufacturer had some kind of program like that, similar to the luxury auto programs. I am quite certain I could not walk into a showroom and just expect them to be able to arrange an export.

People have posted here before about buying pianos in Europe and having them shipped home. Honestly, I think it would be less of a big deal for pianos than cars (pianos aren't regulated), but I've had the experience of shipping cars and household stuff in both directions.

Frankly, European retail price minus VAT seems like a significant incentive to me.

Yeah if I just took delivery in Europe to a friend's house and then arranged separate shipment, I would be assured of getting it to the USA, but certainly would not be able to avoid VAT.

Shame about the Audi program, though it was not something we looked into at the time, and we bought two Audis, though both after 2018 which is probably why I didn't even notice it had a program. I admit my interest is piqued by the new E-tron Q5, but....

Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
L
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
Warranty work is a different matter. New pianos can sometimes need attention while they settle in . The Schimmel.I now have has had no problems. The Sauter needed a occasional warranty work.,.minor things like pedal
squeaks, a buzz .(actually not the piano
( However one never can know for certain with a piano )

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Yeah if I just took delivery in Europe to a friend's house and then arranged separate shipment, I would be assured of getting it to the USA, but certainly would not be able to avoid VAT.

No, if you take or ship your purchase abroad, you can claim back the VAT. This is very normal.

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/money/vat-refunds

And it adds up. VAT is about 20% in most European countries.


How to Upload Pictures
“If it sounds good, it IS good.” ― Duke Ellington!



Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,367
2000 Post Club Member
OP Online Blank
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,367
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Yeah if I just took delivery in Europe to a friend's house and then arranged separate shipment, I would be assured of getting it to the USA, but certainly would not be able to avoid VAT.

No, if you take or ship your purchase abroad, you can claim back the VAT. This is very normal.

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/money/vat-refunds

And it adds up. VAT is about 20% in most European countries.

Yes, I've done that after spending time in Europe (I used to spend summers abroad, after living abroad for some time), but I just wonder if the transaction is completed after delivery of an item like that and therefore the VAT is un-reclaimable. Also, I don't know how to do that other than the thieves at the airport which take a ridiculous commission to give you back a portion of your VAT, and even that requires a decent coordination with a retailer already accustomed to setting up the transaction properly. I'm guessing the amount of money involved is worth trying to figure it out, though, even without the use of a service that handles it both on the purchase side and on the refund side.

Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Yeah if I just took delivery in Europe to a friend's house and then arranged separate shipment, I would be assured of getting it to the USA, but certainly would not be able to avoid VAT.

No, if you take or ship your purchase abroad, you can claim back the VAT. This is very normal.

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/money/vat-refunds

And it adds up. VAT is about 20% in most European countries.

Yes, I've done that after spending time in Europe (I used to spend summers abroad, after living abroad for some time), but I just wonder if the transaction is completed after delivery of an item like that and therefore the VAT is un-reclaimable. Also, I don't know how to do that other than the thieves at the airport which take a ridiculous commission to give you back a portion of your VAT, and even that requires a decent coordination with a retailer already accustomed to setting up the transaction properly. I'm guessing the amount of money involved is worth trying to figure it out, though, even without the use of a service that handles it both on the purchase side and on the refund side.


There is always someone willing to take your money for something you can do yourself. And there's always someone ready to take as much money as you're willing to give them.

I've done this myself countless times, although admittedly the largest thing I ever bought was a bicycle (roughly 1500 USD).

The easiest way is to simply shop at a retailer who does it for you in advance, takes it out of the purchase price and you never pay it at all. Easy peasy. No worries about claiming it back.

Honestly, I'd be very surprised if in the European Union you couldn't find a piano dealer who offers this to customers who live in other countries.

For example, www.thomannmusic.com even lists prices w/o VAT and will calculate shipping online. International purchasing and shipping is not unusual.


How to Upload Pictures
“If it sounds good, it IS good.” ― Duke Ellington!



Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,920
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,920
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Yeah if I just took delivery in Europe to a friend's house and then arranged separate shipment, I would be assured of getting it to the USA, but certainly would not be able to avoid VAT.

No, if you take or ship your purchase abroad, you can claim back the VAT. This is very normal.

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/money/vat-refunds

And it adds up. VAT is about 20% in most European countries.
My understanding is that the UK government has stopped the ability to claim back VAT.
Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,399
j&j Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 4,399
Depending on your location there are dealers in North America that carry European brands. Or when you are able to travel, book a factory tour and then get it shipped. PianoWorld founder, Frank Baxter traveled to Estonia to pick out his L190. I found mine at my local Yamaha dealer. YMMV.


J & J
Estonia L190 Hidden Beauty
Casio Privia PX-330
My piano’s voice is beautiful!
[Linked Image]
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,406
G
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,406
Originally Posted by Beemer
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
Yeah if I just took delivery in Europe to a friend's house and then arranged separate shipment, I would be assured of getting it to the USA, but certainly would not be able to avoid VAT.

No, if you take or ship your purchase abroad, you can claim back the VAT. This is very normal.

https://www.ricksteves.com/travel-tips/money/vat-refunds

And it adds up. VAT is about 20% in most European countries.
My understanding is that the UK government has stopped the ability to claim back VAT.
Ian

That was interesting so I researched the gov.uk site. You are absolutely correct Beemer, you cannot buy a piano as a private individual in the UK and then subsequently reclaim the VAT, you can only do that if the goods (piano) is a business item for business purposes.

However you can buy a piano from a UK dealer for delivery (export) to yourself at your address outside the UK, the dealer can then either reclaim the VAT or sell it as a zero VAT rated item in the first place. So it *is* possible to legally get that piano VAT free - you just have to do it the right way.

Last edited by gwing; 02/24/21 07:11 PM.
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 881
L
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 881
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
So I was talking to my husband the other day about the general similarities between car dealerships and piano dealerships, and he brought up the whole European delivery programs for luxury cars in the US, and he asked if there was some kind of similar program for European pianos like there are for cars.

I'm starting to toy with the idea of getting a new piano, and definitely wouldn't mind expanding the list of potential brands to consider, but I can't imagine that there's a similar program considering one of the points of the European delivery program for cars is that you take delivery of it while there and then drive it yourself to the export point.

I'm thinking this is less fun for pianos, and I envision myself pushing a piano down some street in Germany looking for a boat to put it on.

But you never know....do people from the US successfully buy pianos in Europe?
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
So I was talking to my husband the other day about the general similarities between car dealerships and piano dealerships, and he brought up the whole European delivery programs for luxury cars in the US, and he asked if there was some kind of similar program for European pianos like there are for cars.

I'm starting to toy with the idea of getting a new piano, and definitely wouldn't mind expanding the list of potential brands to consider, but I can't imagine that there's a similar program considering one of the points of the European delivery program for cars is that you take delivery of it while there and then drive it yourself to the export point.

I'm thinking this is less fun for pianos, and I envision myself pushing a piano down some street in Germany looking for a boat to put it on.

But you never know....do people from the US successfully buy pianos in Europe?


Bösendorfer 170
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 881
L
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 881
Call or write them an email and ask them, including any VAT questions. They are nice people.

Last edited by Lakeviewsteve; 02/24/21 07:56 PM.

Bösendorfer 170
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300
Brexit has resulted in some ambiguities.
The good news is that it isn't English pianos that people are interested in.
There's no question about reclaiming or avoiding German VAT.


How to Upload Pictures
“If it sounds good, it IS good.” ― Duke Ellington!



Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,875
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,875
Originally Posted by TwoSnowflakes
So I was talking to my husband the other day about the general similarities between car dealerships and piano dealerships, and he brought up the whole European delivery programs for luxury cars in the US, and he asked if there was some kind of similar program for European pianos like there are for cars.

I'm starting to toy with the idea of getting a new piano, and definitely wouldn't mind expanding the list of potential brands to consider, but I can't imagine that there's a similar program considering one of the points of the European delivery program for cars is that you take delivery of it while there and then drive it yourself to the export point.

I'm thinking this is less fun for pianos, and I envision myself pushing a piano down some street in Germany looking for a boat to put it on.

But you never know....do people from the US successfully buy pianos in Europe?

I think it is safer to buy a piano manufactured for your market. Climates vary around the world, and at least some manufacturers have mature programs to season the wood they use for the target market. Yamaha and Kawai have mature processes for this. I would want to buy a Yamaha, Kawai, or Boston piano manufactured for where I live. European climates may be similar enough to the US that there may not need to be a difference, but I'm not sure. And of course the US is not in a single climate.

At the very least, this should be investigated for a piano targeted for purchase.


Play classical repertoire from score. Improvise blues.
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,875
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,875
As I understand it, the biggest risk would be putting a piano seasoned for a damper climate into service in a drier climate, but it may be more nuanced than that.


Play classical repertoire from score. Improvise blues.
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
L
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
As I understand it, the biggest risk would be putting a piano seasoned for a damper climate into service in a drier climate, but it may be more nuanced than that.
I suppose it depends very much where you live. I can imagine that Arizona gets very dry. Yes I would be worried about that. Yet I remember someone who bought a Sauter 122 in Germany ( in winter) He mentioned that the humidity can get as low as 20 C. To me in Vancouver that would be a reason for concern .

Last edited by Lady Bird; 03/02/21 06:42 PM. Reason: missing text
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
L
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 6,676
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
As I understand it, the biggest risk would be putting a piano seasoned for a damper climate into service in a drier climate, but it may be more nuanced than that.
I suppose it depends very much where you live. I can imagine that Arizona gets very dry. Yes I would be worried about that. Yet I remember someone who bought a Sauter 122 in Germany ( in winter) He mentioned that the humidity can get as low as 20 C. To me in Vancouver that would be a reason for concern .
I just felt I had to correct this .The OP of this thread ( in the sub forum) said that where he lived in Germany the humidity could go down to 20% in winter ( not 20°C ???)

Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 127
A
Silver Supporter until Feb 1 2020
Full Member
Offline
Silver Supporter until Feb 1 2020
Full Member
A
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 127
It was 36 years ago (1985). We bought our Boesendorfer 225 from a Paris dealer (Daniel Magne) who arranged for us to have a tour of the factories in Wiener Neustadt and Vienna, and pick our instrument from the four that were being tuned and voiced in the Vienna factory. We told the people what we wanted in terms of final voicing and left. Magne then arranged the shipping to Paris and then air freight to California including delivery and set up in our home. At the time, the US Dollar was very strong (the GBPound was about $1.10 USD) and there was also a major difference in price between the US and Europe. We bought the 225 for $24,000 including shipping to the US. I calculated with inflation, that would be the same as $57,000 today. Back then we paid for the piano in French Francs (before the Euro). The Boesendorfer price in the US was much, much higher than in Europe. There were some differences in price in different countries in Europe. France and Austria were very close in price and the UK was somewhat higher.

On entry to the US, customs did not charge any duty and we didn't have to pay US sales tax. Not sure about VAT back then.

I'm not sure of the price differential today between the Europe and the US. I don't think it is as much as then. Also all the European dealers we talked to were willing to bargain.

Last edited by astrotoy; 03/04/21 01:50 AM.

Boesendorfer 225 (1985)
Yamaha S400E (predecessor to CF4) Disklavier (1992)
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Offline

Platinum Supporter until Feb 18  2015
6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 6,300
Originally Posted by astrotoy
It was 36 years ago (1985). We bought our Boesendorfer 225 from a Paris dealer (Daniel Magne)

I always enjoy this story!

I see this Austrian listing in Klaviano.com:

https://www.klaviano.com/pianos-for...layersystem%5D%5B0%5D=&search=Search

It's got a 225 for USD 121,451.24. I don't know if they'd haggle on that, but remember you can claim back VAT, which is 20% and would put the price at about 98,000. (although I see some sites say that you can only claim back 15% in Austria, which would put it at about USD 103k).

30% off PB's SMP is about 119k.


How to Upload Pictures
“If it sounds good, it IS good.” ― Duke Ellington!



Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 118
W
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
W
Joined: Jan 2021
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by Retsacnal
Originally Posted by astrotoy
It was 36 years ago (1985). We bought our Boesendorfer 225 from a Paris dealer (Daniel Magne)

I always enjoy this story!

I see this Austrian listing in Klaviano.com

Klaviano is just the tip of the iceberg. My parents (in fact, my entire family) still live in Austria, fairly close to Wiener Neustadt.
The Boesendorfer used pianos that can be had over their on local websites are INSANE. See here for under 14k Euros:

https://www.willhaben.at/iad/kaufen-und-verkaufen/d/boesendorfer-170-maechtiger-klang-428176708/

I'm making a salary in the US I'd never remotely get back home, but I wince every time I get a quote over here in the US for German or Austrian instruments.


"Ein Buch ist ein Spiegel, aus dem kein Apostel herausgucken kann, wenn ein Affe hineinguckt." Georg Christoph Lichtenberg (1742-1799)
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,875
S
1000 Post Club Member
Online Content
1000 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,875
I don't know why pianos are more expensive in the US than in most other countries. The gap is wider than what can be explained by US import duties on pianos or shipping charges in comparison to shipping elsewhere.


Play classical repertoire from score. Improvise blues.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Ken Knapp, Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Komplete Kontrol S88 MK1 Touchkeys
by Micahjd - 05/16/21 07:26 PM
Piano out of tune?
by TheodorN - 05/16/21 04:10 PM
iOS Pianos on iPad POLL
by RinTin - 05/16/21 01:50 PM
I can quit any time I want to ...
by Retsacnal - 05/16/21 01:42 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,967
Posts3,094,296
Members101,538
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5