2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
54 members (Beansparrow, alexii, brdwyguy, Bill McKaig,RPT, Buzz209, antune, 13 invisible), 1,007 guests, and 536 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
K
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Dear all,

My Kawai GL-10 with ATX2 has started developing an incredibly annoying metallic ringing sound in F3-F4 octave even when hammers don't strike the strings. The instrument has been purchased literally 10 days ago. It was supposed to be brand new.

A technician from the piano store has visited me today. It is evident that the process of string dampers lifting is causing their vibrations. Has anybody experienced on their pianos the same issues? The technician has told me this is pretty common.

Any help will be much appreciated!


Last edited by Kamil Tamiola; 03/02/21 03:59 PM. Reason: A call to help

Kawai GL-10 with ATX2
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 234
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 234
It’s pretty usual with grands owing to the increased number of split wedge dampers, and especially noticeable to anyone who usually plays upright pianos. (Uprights usually only have three or four split wedge felts, grands sometimes have a whole section with double and single split wedge felts.)

The noise will lessen as the felts settle in, but will probably never completely disappear. I remember my Mother’s new Yamaha grand arriving when I was about 10, and I noticed the same thing, having only ever played an upright before smile


Started work at the Blüthner piano re-building workshop in Perivale, UK, in 1989. Self employed since 2000. Learning something new about pianos every day... smile

http://www.hamiltonpianos.com/
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
K
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Thank you so much for your comment. Is there a plausible way to accelerate / augment the process of 'settling in'? I am truly dissatisfied with this banjo thing I have going on right now in my Kawai.


Kawai GL-10 with ATX2
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,819
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,819
I have a GL-10, I can't hear it when I press an individual note to lift the damper, but if I push down the sustain pedal I hear a harp like sound from the wedge felts lifting from between some of the strings. I'm going to ask the tuner next time he's here if there's anything he can do to quiet that down.


Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 969
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 969
Hi Kamil. That sounds normal to me. In fact, on my digital piano, it adds that sound to simulate damper lift noise, and you can adjust how much you want. If it's bugging you, maybe go to the piano store and see if you get it on other pianos. My guess is that you'll hear that on other pianos too. Probably won't make you like the sound any better, but it may alleviate your worries that something is wrong with your piano.


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
First crush: Kawai GL10, MP11SE
Current fling: Petrof III
Foster child: 1927 Kurtzmann upright
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 234
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 234
Originally Posted by Kamil Tamiola
Thank you so much for your comment. Is there a plausible way to accelerate / augment the process of 'settling in'? I am truly dissatisfied with this banjo thing I have going on right now in my Kawai.

If your tech is willing, it is possible to ease the felts using damper pliers, but I'd quite understand if they weren't happy to do this! Best way is just to play the piano a lot to get the dampers to settle in. If you're finding it too distracting for every day playing, try putting the top down to close the sound in. (I know; defeats the object of having a grand piano...!) Part of my job when I was an apprentice was playing the rebuilt pianos in to get dampers and regulation to settle down; try Googling "piano pounding room" - you might find it interesting! smile


Started work at the Blüthner piano re-building workshop in Perivale, UK, in 1989. Self employed since 2000. Learning something new about pianos every day... smile

http://www.hamiltonpianos.com/
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
K
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Hi Kamil. That sounds normal to me. In fact, on my digital piano, it adds that sound to simulate damper lift noise, and you can adjust how much you want. If it's bugging you, maybe go to the piano store and see if you get it on other pianos. My guess is that you'll hear that on other pianos too. Probably won't make you like the sound any better, but it may alleviate your worries that something is wrong with your piano.

Thank you for your comment Emery. I did have MP11 SE too smile. The issue here is an isolated dumper lifting sound on one octave only. It literally drives me nuts and the multi-mic recording of the piano sounds simply atrocious.


Kawai GL-10 with ATX2
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
K
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Adypiano
Originally Posted by Kamil Tamiola
Thank you so much for your comment. Is there a plausible way to accelerate / augment the process of 'settling in'? I am truly dissatisfied with this banjo thing I have going on right now in my Kawai.

If your tech is willing, it is possible to ease the felts using damper pliers, but I'd quite understand if they weren't happy to do this! Best way is just to play the piano a lot to get the dampers to settle in. If you're finding it too distracting for every day playing, try putting the top down to close the sound in. (I know; defeats the object of having a grand piano...!) Part of my job when I was an apprentice was playing the rebuilt pianos in to get dampers and regulation to settle down; try Googling "piano pounding room" - you might find it interesting! smile

Thank you once again for your feedback. I am intending to play with closed lid indeed, as the noise literally cannot be unheard. I do like the tone of the piano, overall.


Kawai GL-10 with ATX2
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,299
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,299
I had to crank up the volume super loudly to hear it, but I hear it. I will agree that the sound is completely normal, which I am used to hearing all my life. It's way more obvious if you press down the sustain pedal and hear them all doing at once, but it's always there.

The more amazing part to me is that you hear it at all during regular playing! I thought I had super sensitive ears, but yours must be even more sensitive than mine! I am impressed! laugh


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!

Current:
1998 PETROF Model IV Chippendale
LEGO Grand Piano (IDEAS 031|21323)
YAMAHA PSR-520

Past:
2017 Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony
1991 Kawai 602-M Console in Oak
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
K
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by SonatainfSharp
I had to crank up the volume super loudly to hear it, but I hear it. I will agree that the sound is completely normal, which I am used to hearing all my life. It's way more obvious if you press down the sustain pedal and hear them all doing at once, but it's always there.

The more amazing part to me is that you hear it at all during regular playing! I thought I had super sensitive ears, but yours must be even more sensitive than mine! I am impressed! laugh

Thank you for your feedback. I am absolutely aware that dampers will make noise while lifted, however, harshness of the F3-F4 octave sounds is super annoying. I have talked with my technician and they might be able to replace the felt on these dampers.


Kawai GL-10 with ATX2
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,299
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,299
Keep us posted!


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!

Current:
1998 PETROF Model IV Chippendale
LEGO Grand Piano (IDEAS 031|21323)
YAMAHA PSR-520

Past:
2017 Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony
1991 Kawai 602-M Console in Oak
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,524
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,524
As others have said, trichord wedge noise is normal. All grand pianos do this to some degree, and the alternative of changing to flat damper felts would not be sufficient to dampen the sound properly - so the wedge noise is the lesser of the 2 evils by a long way!

The damper felts can be trimmed to reduce the noise to a minimum. The technician should contact the service department at Kawai for guidance on how this is done - but it is pretty finicky work and might not be something the average tuner will be up to doing.

Another piece of advice - move the microphones away from the dampers! It's amazing how many people put microphones close to the action and damper area - but the piano sound does not come from there, it comes from the soundboard! Experiment with some different mic locations, that will help a LOT in the recordings.


Don Mannino, MPA
Kawai America
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
K
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by KawaiDon
As others have said, trichord wedge noise is normal. All grand pianos do this to some degree, and the alternative of changing to flat damper felts would not be sufficient to dampen the sound properly - so the wedge noise is the lesser of the 2 evils by a long way!

The damper felts can be trimmed to reduce the noise to a minimum. The technician should contact the service department at Kawai for guidance on how this is done - but it is pretty finicky work and might not be something the average tuner will be up to doing.

Another piece of advice - move the microphones away from the dampers! It's amazing how many people put microphones close to the action and damper area - but the piano sound does not come from there, it comes from the soundboard! Experiment with some different mic locations, that will help a LOT in the recordings.

Thank you so much Don. Much appreciated. I will pass on your feedback to the technician that is supposed to work on my GL-10.


Kawai GL-10 with ATX2
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,930
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Bronze Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,930
The beginning of your video has notes being played off screen so we cannot see those dampers. Later for a brief time we see two dampers where I believe they are not lifting high enough. It would have been better to post a video showing you slowly depressing just one key so we can see how close the hammer is to the strings before the damper starts to lift. We then can also more carefully see the space between the felt and the strings.
I recently discovered that my lowest bass dampers were not completely clearing the string because when i was regulating my upright I failed to inspect the full length of the damper and its lower part still was brushing the string as the note was played.
Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 56
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 56
I am wondering though - is this not maybe a pedaling problem? Abrupt pedaling technique can cause this. Not implying that the OP does not know how to pedal, but migrating from a digital to an acoustic may take time to adjust your pedaling technique. My experience is that even moving from an upright to a grand requires adjustment to pedaling. It is after all a totally different action.


1928 Knabe grand. Currently fantasizing and preparing Beethoven op. 110. Still struggling with Baba Black sheep.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,639
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 29,639
There is not that much difference between upright and grand damping, except that there is a lot of stuff between the dampers and the ears on an upright. But there is considerable difference between a digital and an acoustic. They are really two different instruments.


Semipro Tech
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
K
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by manykeys
I am wondering though - is this not maybe a pedaling problem? Abrupt pedaling technique can cause this. Not implying that the OP does not know how to pedal, but migrating from a digital to an acoustic may take time to adjust your pedaling technique. My experience is that even moving from an upright to a grand requires adjustment to pedaling. It is after all a totally different action.

Thank you for your comment. This is most definitely not a pedalling problem. Just a very rough felt on F3-F4 octave dampers that physically makes the strings vibrate when F3-F4 octave keys are depressed gently. I am hoping that felt readjustment and perhaps a small intervention of piano technic will help with this.


Kawai GL-10 with ATX2
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
K
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
K
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 14
Originally Posted by Beemer
The beginning of your video has notes being played off screen so we cannot see those dampers. Later for a brief time we see two dampers where I believe they are not lifting high enough. It would have been better to post a video showing you slowly depressing just one key so we can see how close the hammer is to the strings before the damper starts to lift. We then can also more carefully see the space between the felt and the strings.
I recently discovered that my lowest bass dampers were not completely clearing the string because when i was regulating my upright I failed to inspect the full length of the damper and its lower part still was brushing the string as the note was played.
Ian

Thank you so much for this comment Ian. I will have closer look tomorrow. The suggestion would make a perfect sense.


Kawai GL-10 with ATX2
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 905
W
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 905
Digitals and Acoustics are indeed two different animals regarding damping, BDB. But grand and upright damping have important differences. First, the dampers are not located in the same place relative to the strike point. The most effective place to locate dampers is around the strike point because of the nodes. That is not a problem with a grand, as the dampers are located above the string plane and the action below it. The two can occupy the same space and do their best job there. In an upright, the dampers must be located on the same side of the string plane. Interference requires that the dampers be located above or below the where the hammer strikes. This is not nearly as effective, and we hear the results. Bass damping is often poor, with ghosting a common problem. Secondly, grand actions function within a horizontal plane, where gravity plays an important role in damping. Damping is aided by a number of leads in the underlevers, and many back action designs have no need for damper springs. In contrast, a vertical action is utterly reliant upon damper springs, without them damping is not possible.


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Please help: Kawai ST-1 (institutional) or K-300?
by SantaCecilia - 06/14/21 07:11 PM
Kawai VPC1 velocity curve
by luigigiul76 - 06/14/21 06:17 PM
Quality of the piano dealership shop
by lct14558 - 06/14/21 05:58 PM
Studio piano vsts? eg Ivory, Alicia's Keys
by MarkOfJohnson - 06/14/21 05:30 PM
YDP 162 output
by Sol Finker - 06/14/21 01:03 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics207,513
Posts3,103,663
Members101,810
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5