2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
42 members (bilb, CyberGene, BlakeOR, aidans, Calavera, Archipelago, Carey, chronos1701, AprilE, 12 invisible), 381 guests, and 595 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
wolfpaw Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
Hello -

Has anyone salvaged the sound coming from their digital piano's internal speakers by adding external ones instead? My Clavinova sounds beautiful through headphones but the internal speakers are a horror show in comparison: tinny, weak in the bass, cramped, just ugly really [model CLP-270].

It's so nasty that I use my headphones 99% of the time, which creates it's own problems when trying to learn to balance the hands, use the sustain pedal properly, etc.

I've got an amplifier and I was thinking of getting some decent second-hand speakers to use instead, as an external alternative. Has anyone done this and found that it made a big enough difference to be worthwhile? The CLP-270 has AUX IN and AUX OUT. I'm guessing I just connect the speakers to the amp and then the AUX at the back of the amp to the AUX OUT on the piano using the red/white jack plugs?

Ideally I'd get an acoustic piano as well but it's just not possible at the moment so I'm trying to make my Yamaha more user-friendly...

Thank you smile

Last edited by wolfpaw; 02/27/21 12:01 PM.
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,690
R
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
R
Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,690
Yes, I have. And, yes, it makes a big difference.

I use a typical home theater amplifier (Pioneer VSX-24TX) with some nice speakers.

The home theater amplifier makes lovely sounding music when I play my CDs through it, so I figured it would do the same for my digital piano. It does.

Some experienced members here have commented that the quality of the transducer (the actual round speaker inside the speaker box) is supremely important to making good sound. I have confirmed this for myself with an actual experiment. So, I believe your greatest potential for sound improvement will come from the employment of high quality speakers. I am talking about home theater/ home hi-fi type speakers.

Where I am at, there was a recent glut of great, high quality speakers on the used market. I suspect it was from people trying to sell off their stereo or hifi systems that were replaced by their new Christmas acquisitions.

I would avoid the ever-popular-around-here studio monitors. They are not designed for making beautiful sounds. They seem to be designed to provide a very sterile sound, stripped of nuance, so that the sound engineer can clearly distinguish one sound from another as he/she decides exactly how to mix multiple sounds into a final composite sound package. I tried for two years to get an enjoyable sound from studio monitors, and never succeeded.

If you enjoy the sound of your home sound system when you play your favorite piano CD, then pursue that sound. Your headphone experience tells you that there is a high quality sound inside the Clavinova. All you need do is give it an equally high quality sound reproduction system. Trust your ears, and the hifi systems that feed them.


Ralph

Kawai VPC1
Garritan CFX
Pianist since April, 2015
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,469
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,469
I tried that shortly after buying my CLP240 in 2008. Try and try again ... without good results.

If the original sound is poor (and it was!) there's nothing a sound system can do to make it sound like a proper piano.
Then I discovered virtual instruments. That fixed the problem.

@Ralphiano: Wolfpaw's piano is a CLP270, not very different from my CLP240. So I think my answer applies.
You didn't say what piano you use. It must be much newer and better than either of those.

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,206
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,206
@Macmacmac, but wolfpaw said he likes the sound through headphones. Perhaps a good pair of speakers would render quite close to what he likes with the headphones.

(My perception is different : with the previous generation, CLP150, AWM sound generation too, I have switched from the internal sound to VST while using the piano mostly by headphones).

I am a bit surprised because the CLP270 was the top of Clavinova in 2005, then it should have a decent amplification and speakers. To get a better speaker set, perhaps 8” speakers (Yamaha HS8, Presonus Eris E8, Adam T8V, anything in « 8 »...) is needed.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 02/27/21 01:08 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,079
P
4000 Post Club Member
Offline
4000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 4,079
I’m not a fan of monitors atop a cabinet; this destroys the aesthetic appeal for me.

It would be better to sell the aging cabinet and buy a ‘slab’; these, conversely, look great alongside monitors; not to mention that you could save 15% or more by switching to GEICO.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
wolfpaw Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
Thanks for the feedback.

I think one of the problems is that the headphone reproduction is so good that it probably makes the internal speakers sound worse than they are, in comparison. If I'd never used headphones at all then perhaps I wouldn't be so critical of the results without them [although I find its sustain pedal horrible to use anyway].

I've got a 5.1 surround sound system that I don't use with a DVD/amp plus a subwoofer, big left/right side speakers and some little ones. I can connect to the TV but how would it connect to the Clavinova?

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,469
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,469
Most pianos have line output jacks. I presume your Clavinova does, too.

I presume that your 5.1 sound system has line inputs?
Back in the day they'd be labelled CD, DVD, etc. Now they might be called AV1, AV2, etc.

Connect the piano line outputs to the A/V line inputs. Simple.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
wolfpaw Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
Yes, there's AUDIO IN with red and white sockets. So the red/white AUX OUT on the piano goes into the AUDIO IN red/white in the surround sound amp. I don't want to blow anything up shocked [I need to get some red/white jack plugs/leads too. Will report back once I've tried it out) eek

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,611
E
EPW Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,611
Just turn down the volume so you don't blow your ears off laugh


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 269
A
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
A
Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 269
probably yes, builtin sound systems in digital pianos are usually very low quality

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
wolfpaw Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
I've been playing it this evening without headphones. There's a particular area in the treble range, from middle C upwards for a couple of octaves where it just sounds harsh and metallic [more than I like anyway]. Also, I use way too much weight on the keys and they seem to respond totally differently compared with the sound through headphones. So my playing sounds even worse than usual. It's a bit depressing really. It's made me realise how much I can get away with using headphones...

It's annoying as I don't enjoy playing it at all without headphones but I know that using headphones all the time isn't actually doing anything to improve my playing. So I'm sort of stuck.

Anyway, I got the surround sound stuff down from the loft and I found red and white RCA cables that I'd forgotten I had. I got it all set up and, oh...the DVD/amp part of the surround sound system is no longer working. It's Samsung and I just get a sort of hexagonal symbol with a diagonal line through it on the display [a bit like a stop sign] when I turn the power on. It stays like that for a second or two and then the unit automatically reverts to standby. I've no idea what's wrong with it.

So it looks like I might be looking at trying the speaker option instead at some point. The CLP-270 was an almost top of the range model when it was first released but it's pretty old now. It would be nice to try a new one and see what improvements have been made.

Last edited by wolfpaw; 02/27/21 05:55 PM.
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,206
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,206
The CLP270 is AWM based : some velocity layers and no blending. Then the timbre change abruptly with the velocity. With newer pianos, since CLP4xx, layers are blended then the tone change smoothly.

Since the CLP5xx, the CFIIIS is replaced by a CFX and a Bösendorfer. I prefer this change, but it is also a matter if taste. If you prefer brighter pianos, you may regret the CFIIIS.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 402
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 402
In my opinion, the answer to the OP’s question is yes.

Studio monitors can make a very big difference in sound quality, particularly if they have software which help to optimize poor room acoustics.

And ultra-near field monitors can help decrease the influence of room acoustics if they are positioned close to your ears

[Linked Image]


Yamaha N1X, P-515.
Genelec 8331 monitors and 7350 sub.
VI’s: Garritan CFX, VSL Bösendorfer Upright, and VSL Blüthner 1895. Pianoteq.
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,206
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,206
@JJHLH : Do you enhance the sound of the N1X when switching a « spatial sampling » sound sent on 6 speakers to a stereo 2x2 drivers ?

Last edited by Frédéric L; 02/27/21 07:13 PM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 402
J
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
J
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 402
Originally Posted by Frédéric L
@JJHLH : Do you enhance the sound of the N1X when switching a « spatial sampling » sound sent on 6 speakers to a stereo 2x2 drivers ?

I’m sorry Frederic but I’m not sure I understand your question.

Currently about 75% of the sound comes from the monitors and about 25% comes from the N1X speakers. Not sure exactly how that arrangement came to be but I prefer it to either the monitors alone or the N1X alone.


Yamaha N1X, P-515.
Genelec 8331 monitors and 7350 sub.
VI’s: Garritan CFX, VSL Bösendorfer Upright, and VSL Blüthner 1895. Pianoteq.
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,206
3000 Post Club Member
Online Content
3000 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 3,206
@JJHLH : thanks for the answer. I haven’t think about using both set of speakers. I suppose the N1X good for basses (with a 16cm / 6” speaker) and your monitors for tweeters.


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13
M
Junior Member
Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13
It can, depending on how you have it hooked up and to what sort of speakers/system.

First off, use the regular stereo audio outs, whether 1/4 inch or RCA (hifi) It must go out stereo.

Even if you use a dedicated mono out from the unit, you will get what is called a summed output, meaning combining the L and R signals into one mono signal. Any time you do that you produce what is called phase cancellation, which degrades the signal. Even a great stage piano will not sound as good when sent mono. Of course if you only use the L or R alone, you're only getting half the picture.

It is possible that the speakers on your Clavinova might be a mono signal, while the headphones are stereo...more what it really sounds like. Check to see if the piano amp is mono or stereo...

Second, you must use a dedicated stereo EQ with separate L/R settings for the piano alone. EQ settings for the lower (L) section will be a bit different from the higher (R) section. Like if you want more "bite" in the low end, but a smoother high end.

A home stereo might be fine for amplification, depending on it's fidelity.

Good powered studio monitors or good powered stage monitors would sound best. They don't have to be huge.

One setup I have is a Yamaha P-250 (slab) with speakers. I hooked up a set of small Yamaha stage monitors, sitting on the floor. Each has an 8 inch woofer and a tweeter. They are more than enough power.
I still use the piano speakers for a touch of high/mids, and the monitors reinforce the "body". Then it's fiddling with the EQ until you get want you want.

If all you have is a headphone out, you could use that, but get a cable that will turn the stereo out into separate left and right plugs.


Yamaha P-90, P-250, Bunch of synths, Logic ProX
DIY enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,256
C
6000 Post Club Member
Offline
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,256
Originally Posted by Macmacmac
. . . If the original sound is poor (and it was!) there's nothing a sound system can do to make it sound like a proper piano.
Then I discovered virtual instruments. That fixed the problem.

There's an un-explored possibility:

. . . If the original sound (the output from the sound generator =
. . . . . what you hear over good-quality headphones) is good,

. . . a good sound system _can_ reproduce that sound accurately,
. . . and it'll sound as much "like a proper piano" as it does through
. . . headphones.

I was quite surprised when I plugged my PX-350 into a Yamaha StagePas 300 PA system (300 watts, 8" woofers, horn-loaded tweeter):

. . . it sounded _way_ better, than it did through its own speakers.

However, the PX-350 sound generator had a problem the PA system couldn't fix:

. . . . The sounds had a too-short sustain time.

Which is what pushed me into the VST world -- I needed Pianoteq (or some other VST) to fix that problem.

A hi-fi system is worth trying; a pair of powered monitors is worth trying. If what you learn is that the sound generator isn't as good as you think --

. . . don't say you weren't warned.

On another topic:

One of the common problems with people learning on DP's is that they pound the keys. That gives a harsh tone -- especially in the midrange and treble.

To practice _not_ pounding the keys (which will give you a gentler tone), you'll have to turn up the Volume control on the DP. The CLP-270 has 160 watts of amp output, which is _a lot_. So try this:

. . . Set the Volume control to about 3/4 up the scale;

. . . Unplug the headphones, listen through the speakers;

. . . Listen to the volume of sound, when you play;

. . . Plug the headphones in;

. . . Adjust the Volume so that the sound is about as loud through the
. . . headphones, as it was through the loudspeakers, when you play.

Have fun, welcome to cobbled-together DP's --


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
wolfpaw Offline OP
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 34
The volume control advice was useful, thanks. Using headphones I had the volume at about 50%, which I think is probably much too quiet so I've adjusted it to be louder.

I'm going to try using the Technics amplifier I've got with some speakers sat on top of the piano case, one each end. If I use the L/R AUX OUT sockets for the speakers, will I still get sound coming out of the internal speakers or will it mute them as it does when I plug in headphones?

Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 419
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2020
Posts: 419
I thought I wanted to add monitors to my Casio, but was disappointed with the first set, tried a keyboard amplifier, was REALLY disappointed with that. Neither sounded as good as the factory speakers, they just weren't loud enough for my taste.

Ended up just changing the Key Touch to a lighter setting, and presto, now I have all the volume my piano room can handle. I can get even more volume by changing the Concert Piano setting to Bright, but it is actually too loud and I love the way the primary Concert Grand sounds on my keyboard, so that is where I keep it.


Casio PX-S3000
Nope, no issues with it at all.
Took lessons from 1960 to 1969, stopped at age 16.
Started again in July 2020 at age 67. Lots more fun now!
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Painted ebony keys problem
by grand_BB_71 - 05/07/21 12:42 AM
Hide under piano during earthquake
by twocats - 05/07/21 12:18 AM
1998 Steinway 1098 plate - "P" vs "45"
by pwl - 05/06/21 11:19 PM
Returning/exchanging a new piano
by Fortissima - 05/06/21 10:47 PM
10 Benefits of Piano Playing - Get Your life Shaped
by Liz Zhang - 05/06/21 10:24 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,760
Posts3,090,577
Members101,437
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5