Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Adult Beginners Forum Learning Journal: Chopin Ballade No. 1 Op. 23

Hands too stressed? I was about to compliment you about how relaxed your hands are during the fast passages. What did you particularly work on to get yourself to play relaxed such as this? What did you tell yourself? What did your teacher say if he/she helped you with this? I would appreciate any pointers because this is an area I want to work on as well. Was it mostly the slow practice that helped? Also did you do scales practice in your youth?

Funny on the RX2. I owned that piano for 13 years until I found this Shigeru at a too hard to pass on price!

Also one thing Tubbie and I'm not want to assess other people's playing (yours is coming along nicely) because I don't feel qualified to do so, but if I may I believe the section at 1:05 in this last video is I believe supposed to be played more delicately and more rounded, I think more dolce and smooth especially in the left hand. That's the only section that really stood out to me when listening to the video everything is coming along nicely and anything that needs to be worked on you are already aware based on your comments. I am looking forward to your suggestions.

Also one additional comment on this particular section of the Ballade, I had two piano teachers at one point during the transition to my current program. And the first private teacher was insistent that I play with the fingering as Chopin would have wished based on his Etude studies. The editor of the Henle edition using a finger that I find more comfortable, but my first teacher who is a bit older than my current teachers who are in their late 20's and early 30's both advised that I do which is more comfortable for me and this is how most modern classical pianists play. They both insist that rules are made to be broken, but advised me to play his his fingering when I play the piece for teacher #1 and play with my fingering when I played for them. What fingering are you using in your left hand for this section?

Thanks for sharing your progress, Tubbie. I think you play this well enough to perform it in front of friends. I am particularly impressed with how much you improve in one practice session, or even if it’s a few days apart. I agree with Jethro’s comment about the section that begins at 1:03, Bar 180 in the Henle version. The RH should convey some urgency but the LH needs to be smoother and softer than the RH.

Very impressive Coda. That’s what did me in when I started learning it a couple of years ago. Your tenacity is a real inspiration. Maybe I will come back to this Ballade, but honestly I don’t think I have the technical chops to pull it off.

Please share with us a recording of the entire Ballade when you’re ready!

I'm thinking of Valentina Lisitsa vs Yuja Wang. Valentia has flatter hands, and it looks like she plays with such ease. Yuja has more squared hands, and it looks like she plays with such effort. I think that's actually the opposite. The higher the arm position, the more square the hands are, the less effort is required from the fingers. The lower the arm position, the more flat the hands are, the more effort is required from the fingers. The other thing I think is hindering my progress is I play too far in the key. As we know, playing further in requires more effort than playing at the tip/edge. I tend to play further in because of my short thumbs and lack of in-out arm movements/agility. One other thing I think is as I go fast, I should stop thinking of individual notes and fingers and think of the shape of my arm movements for a group of notes.

My fingers aren't agile enough to play like Valentina. So I'll need to play a bit more like Yuja, or at least experiment to see the difference. That might mean relearning how to play most of the piece. I had a discussion with my teacher a couple of months ago. He said some of his students are not as willing to change the way they play even if the change is for the better. I replied to say that sometimes to progress that little bit more, all it takes is small/minor adjustments. That's more palatable to students because they don't feel like all their effort in practising to get them this far has been wasted. However, sometimes, what students have been practising, while brought them quite far, reaches a limit and to progress further means making significant changes. That's when students are more reluctant to change. I think in my case, for this piece, I need to fundamentally change the way I play in order to progress further.

Slow practice does help, but only if you know exactly what you need to work on and are working on it correctly. When you speed up, it doesn't mean playing exactly how you practise slowly but do it faster. In my case, I usually need to practice slowly to find my optimum arm/hand positions and the optimum way to move from one position to another.

I learned the ABRSM Grade 5 scale requirements when I was in my youth and AMEB Grade 8 scale requirements about 6 years ago, but my techniques are quite inadequate at advanced level. So I still practise scales several times every week (can't say I practise scales everyday). I think people has the misconception that scales are the absolute basic and you need to master them before you can play pieces well. Scales, to play it at advanced level are really difficult. More difficult than a lot of advanced level pieces.


Thanks for the tips. I haven't given much thought for this section because I spent so much time on more challenging sections, like the coda section.


I've never heard my teacher insisting any particular fingering. I am using Henle edition, but if my techniques aren't quite ready for some parts, I'd use dummy fingerings or my teacher would suggest alternate fingerings for the time being. This is more prevalent when I'm learning Bach's fugues.




I have had my RX2 for 12 years now. So it's about time for an upgrade? LOL



Thanks. I'll ask for some help from my teacher for this section in the next lesson!

One year after I left Ballade No. 1 few years ago, I attempted Ballade No. 4. That's when I realise Ballade No. 1 wasn't so bad after all despite some challenging sections. Do join us and come back to this piece ;-)

I am no expert Tubbie but I would be very careful about forcing your hands to copy a style that other pianists use. Whatever is unique about Yuja and Valentina's anatomies their style was a result of that. I remember reading old articles about how piano students in the past tried to emulate Horowitz' flat finger position and as you can imagine that didn't go too well. You've made so much progress with your playing that I think you are already on the right track and your finger movements look good and natural to my untrained eyes. Maybe just continue to do what you have been doing just continue to practice. Let your style develop naturally but overall look out for any undue tension. This is what I'm going to do moving forward. Observe for any tension in my body and relax. Relax the shoulders, relax the elbow, relax the wrist. The commonality I see with accomplished pianists is that their arms move like wet noodles. I want more of that in my technique.

Apologies for the misunderstanding. I am not copying anyone. I'm just using Valentina and Yuja as examples to describe what I was trying to explain.


This is exactly what I discussed with my teacher. When changes are needed to progress further, students tend to reject big changes because of all the effort spent and techniques developed so far. Sometimes to progress further, all you need is to develop the current techniques further. Sometimes to progress further, you need to learn something new, then add to your technical arsenal because what helps you reach to where you are is also the very same thing that hinders you going further. Sometimes learning new techniques requires you to temporarily ditch what you've learned so far.

My fingers may look good, but they don't feel good or good enough. My arm positions are too low to allow me to effectively initiate my finger movements from the first knuckle. Therefore I need to raise my arms. Playing with more square hands also forces you to move them to a more accurate position so that the 'weight' is shifted properly from one finger to another. With flatter hands, I tend to leave my weight behind, making playing the next note more difficult. I have been putting up with this inadequacy and try to get away with it, and it's not working. Once I have found the optimum positions and can move more freely from one note to another, I can then afford to return to more flatter hands.

Those are my thoughts. Hopefully I can demonstrate this to you in my upcoming videos. My next goal is to play the piece in its entirety. To do this, I need to be able to do what I am doing now but with more ease and reliability. Otherwise, I'll always be stuck at playing the piece in sections.

Hi Tubbie, I got back home from work a couple of hours ago and practiced the coda section observing and feeling my hands and arms and then I looked at your video again. I think most of your power is coming from your wrist and fingers which will tire out quickly if you were to play the coda at a fast tempo. I don't think you lean into the keyboard enough with your entire body. When I play this section I feel as if I have a lot of power in reserve because I feel as if I'm letting the weight of my arm do a lot of work even engaging my shoulders and back if necessary. If I lean into the keys a little at times I feel the weight of my body through my arms to my forearms and through my fingers with my fingers seemingly doing little work. I guess what I feel the most is the weight of my arm pushing into the keys letting gravity do a lot of the work. I feel a tremendous amount of power there and the playing is effortless. The hands and wrists are relaxed the whole time. Perhaps you should raise your seat instead of your arms so you could push your body weight towards the keys and get more leverage. If you were to just raise your arms I think you will create tension in the shoulders. The coda is played a lot eventually through "muscle memory" it seems to me, just playing patterns when going at break neck speed.

Again, I am no expert and I've never really watched what my arms or wrists do when I play. I just let things happen naturally. But take my advice with a grain of salt or perhaps the entire salt shaker but the above is just my amateur observation. Definitely talk to your teacher before you make any major whole sale changes.

What I said about higher arms, square hands, freer finger movements etc. they all came from my teacher. These ideas aren't new to me, just my physical self is too stubborn to learn/insist on them. I think if you compare the videos 4 years ago to the new one, I have already been making these changes, some parts a bit more successful than others. That's where the 'progress' came from. But not enough overall and I'm gradually sliding back to old habits. I'm blaming it on muscle memories.

I’m having a hard time understanding what he means by square hands. Does he mean wrists held high with fingers more vertical rather than horizontal to the keys? Or does he mean play with more of a curve to your fingers?

This thread is a good illustration of why getting very good instruction on technique during the first years of learning is so invaluable. There is nothing or very little to undo if one gets good instruction from the beginning, and one can continually build on a good foundation.

I agree. I personally wish I had piano lessons the moment I decided to study the instrument but I didn't have the wisdom in my youth or teens to ask for one. GOOD teachers are so invaluable but not all teachers are necessarily good teachers.

In the OP case he had lessons in his youth and he has followed the syllabus all the way I believe to ABRSM level 8. He also had a teacher when he started the Ballade so it's confusing why these technical issues were not addressed from the beginning of the piece. Is his teacher suggesting making major changes to his technique 5 years later? Maybe not. Maybe he has made suggestions but as the OP stated he has not fully implemented them yet. It's not easy I know.

I too agree. When I started learning the piano in my youth, I was taught very little techniques. My teacher kept skipping my grades because I seemed to learn pieces quickly. When I reached ABRSM Grade 7, my lack of techniques started to show and I got stuck.

Two decades later, I returned to lessons with a new teacher that spent a lot of time on proper techniques. Unfortunately my poor habits from the past came back to haunt me. I've been spending the last 11 years trying to unlearn them, and I am still trying to unlearn them!

I am making progress albeit very slowly. If I didn't I would still be stuck at Grade 7 and not able to learn pieces like this Ballade. But I have some way to go yet.

I have warned many beginners in this forum here to get a good teacher when they start to learn the piano. I have also warn them not to skip grades and learn the techniques properly before progressing. If I learn anything at all is that there are no shortcuts. I didn't want them to be wasting years later to unlearn bad techniques or worse, quit. I bet you have too. I'm sure you've come across some that are just set in their ways.

In some ways, I too am quite stubborn. I'm unlike students such as yourself, who sounds like able to learn things as soon as they are taught, therefore finds it difficult to understand why it takes time for people like me to learn things.

As much as my teacher wants to instil good techniques in me, sometimes I am just not ready to receive them or just don't get it right away. Kudos to my teacher for being so patient with me. So please stop criticising or questioning my teacher. He is a very accomplished musician and teacher. I am the one to blame.

You have good intention to help, therefore you are trying to understand what the problem is. I'm not sure that it can ever be adequately diagnosed via posting in this forum. If it can, none of us would need a teacher. Instead, I find it more helpful when you share your own experience with me (such as using body weight etc.), and would appreciate that you continue to do so. It'd be even better if you could record some videos and share it with me/us. A picture is worth a thousand words!

Thank you for sharing your journey. It's been encouraging to a long time lurker like me. I love your passion for piano.

My apologies Tubbie if it came off as if I was criticizing your teacher. I was just confused by what I was reading because I wasn't sure if it was you who was recommending fundamental changes in your technique or your teacher. If it was you I would recommend to talk to your teacher first since you are making so much progress if it was your teacher I was just wondering why it wasn't recommended sooner and apparently it was so again my apologies to your teacher. To my amateur eyes your technique overall looks good and if it was me I would just let the weight of my arm do more of the work, but again this could be just a case of the blind leading the blind, lol. So if anyone should demonstrate how it should be done it should be your teacher. If you want I could try to make a video this weekend of what I do in the coda section and get a sense of my hand positioning, but you have to understand this is Jethro's self taught technique for piano playing which is analogous to the jungle boy teaching you how to bake a cake.

I do find your video encouraging and I pretty much put the Ballade aside for the past couple of years as I worked on the Chaconne. It's just nice to get the perspective from a fellow hobbyist. I thought this piece was over played and over attempted by hobbyists such as us that I kind of got tired of it. But watching your struggles and your passion for learning the piece has reignited my interest in it. I don't feel alone in the struggle if that makes any sense. Keep up the good work and again I think you are doing great!

Practice notes for the running passage in the Coda section:

Facebook video clip posted on "Adult Piano Learners"