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Originally Posted by ColoRodney
The Kawai-built case for the ES8 / ES 520 / ES 920 is very light AND has wheels..
Ah! Exeptions! And I used to know that. ;-) Nice case! I remember wondering why Kawai didn't make their cases available in the U.S.

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I have two digital pianos and a MIDI controller for use at the computer.

The Kawai ES-110 is in the living room and I have the wooden stand and 3-pedalboard assembly. Just trying to make it look as much as possible like an acoustic piano. Some day that will be replaced with either a hybrid or grand piano. Kawai sounds great in this particular area of the house, better than in the music room. Has to do with speaker placement and being close to a wall.

The Casio Privia PX-S-100 is in my music room with the drum set and bass amp. It has the wood stand but it is my go-to digital piano for jazz gigs, also in home jams, and easily lifts off the stand to be put in the gig bag. This is the slimmest, lightest piano for taking out of the house, and I actually prefer the action on this piano vs. the Kawai. It also has a three pedal assembly. Casio seems to be a popular choice for a lot of jazz players if they need something portable.

The Roland A-49 is a nice MIDI controller and I use it with a DAW on my computer (MixCraft) for composing and editing recordings, but I just have not had much time for that recently.

First and foremost, I consider my main interest jazz piano, although part of my practice time is about working on some classical type material. No, not much of need for synthesizers. My digital pianos can get those basic electric piano and organ sounds for gigs.


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Guilty. I have a PX-350, microKorg XL+, and a new Roland Gaia SH-01.

The microKorg XL+ might be sold-off, if the Gaia does what I think it can do.

Also a little 32-key M-Audio Keystation Mini, which I've travelled with. And a Korg X5D -- ancient, not used in a long time.

. . . Have you heard of a guitarist with one guitar?


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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by ColoRodney
The Kawai-built case for the ES8 / ES 520 / ES 920 is very light AND has wheels..
Ah! Exeptions! And I used to know that. ;-) Nice case! I remember wondering why Kawai didn't make their cases available in the U.S.

No part #s shared in this discussion of a Kawai wheeled case. I recently bought the Kawai SC-1 case from Sweetwater, $280, here's my report:
Kawai SC-1 soft case review

The SC-1 soft case weighs 8.9 pounds, and it gives me some degree of confidence being that it was developed for the ES-8, MP7SE, which are over 10 pounds heavier. Carrying any keyboard over 30 pounds seems like a lot to ask of a soft case. It has both wheels and a shoulder strap. I would never buy a soft case without shoulder straps, exactly for the reasons Scott said.

It feels solid, a well-made bag, and they ARE available in the US. It's actually a Kawai logo on a Ritter bag, which are available in Europe for different sizes, and considerably cheaper in Europe, like half as much.

So, all told, the ES920 + SC-1 soft case + pedals, etc.. makes a total carrying weight of under 50 pounds (about 22.5 kilos).

I had a surprisingly hard time finding bags that had wheels plus a shoulder strap.


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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Abdol
Just wondering how you reach to the forth keyboard on the left!? The only way I can imagine is to suspend myself from the ceiling by a crane or sth...
Actually, I can reach and simultaneously play any combination of two, except I can't play both top boards at the same time. If my math is right, that means I can play 20 out of the 21 possible combinations of two boards in those stacks!
That is what midi is for.


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
That is what midi is for.
Yes. I did some pretty extensive MIDI stuff in the 80s, with multiple keyboards/controllers and a rack full of sound modules, and a custom routing program I wrote, but since then, probably nothing more involved than wiring two devices together. I have been contemplating strategies for MIDIfying this rig, though.

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Pick a hammer weight action you like and an organ/synth action you like, and all other keyboards, VSTs, and Midi modules would be played through the preferred actions over midi.


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What do you suggest for playing the second keyboard out loud? I have monitors that are mounted to one keyboard so can't really use those... and for the second keyboard I wanted to try something different, maybe more low end? Something like a Roland KC amp? Any suggestions? I dont want it to be too bog ideally if it could sit under or beside the stand.

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Some keyboards have line inputs into which you can connect the outputs of a second board. Then the output of the first board will contain the sound from both boards. Or you could buy a separate amp for the second board, or you can buy a keyboard amp that has multiple inputs, or you can buy a small mixer and send the combined outputs of both boards to whatever playback system you like. Keyboard amps (lke the Roland KC) tend not to have the best sound quality, though, especially for piano. But the point is, there are multiple solutions, and your choice may depend on what board you get, what your current board is, and the sounds you'll be playing through it... all of which can get filtered by budget.

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Id like to keep the audio separate as one day I might move one keyboard into living room area and keep the other in the office/spare area. I have a set of nord studio monitors which I don't really find the low end sounding that rich which is expected since they are 4 inches. The second board I plan to use a lot of synth, organ, piano sounds especially organ/piano layers. Any suggestions there?

Last edited by Sebs; 02/25/21 06:20 PM.
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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Chummy
the wheels don't add any weight to the case whatsoever (It's a bunch of plastic and rubber etc.)
It's not just the wheels, the entire case structure has to be built to support it. If you're handling the gear yourself and are okay with just minimal protection, you can often get a very light simple fabric zippered padded case, but you can't add wheels to a case like that, you can only build wheels onto a case that has a more robust skeleton. So for example, at gator cases, if you check cases for a Kawai ES8 (they didn't have the ES920 listed), you can get a carry bag that weighs as little as 8 lbs (3.6 kg). The lightest case with wheels is 28 lbs (12.7 kg).

You feel old at 27? I was doing gigs for something like 15 years before you were born. ;-)


hmm nop smile I have this blue Korg Case: https://www.korg.com/uk/products/accessories/sc_kross2_88_krome88/

it weights 2.2kg only! it's padded well enough and I gigged/took out the ES920 plenty of times with no issues whatsoever. Will the wheels break in 5 years from now? possible! but for what it costs and the convenience it's worth it . It fits the ES920 perfectly ,although it does have an inch or two of room from side to side of the longer part to "breath" . That + The wheels make the whole thing longer while I have a small car. A minor inconvenience that I have to set up my car for the ES920 but not sure it would have gotten in on the back seat had the whole package was shorter.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Abdol
The overlap between the samples in Yamaha synths and arrangers is significant and the voices that are common
Yes, though I wish there was more solid info available about which PSR-SX900 sounds were or were not also in the Montage/MODX. Obviously, you lose the organ flutes (no big deal, I have better organs anyway), and you lose megavoices (also no big deal, as those are only use for backing tracks, which I don't care about), but I'm not sure exactly to what extent the MODX/Montage contain the rest of the keyboard-playable sounds of the arrangers. (The Genos has the appeal of all the Ensemble and SA2 voices that are not in the MODX/Montage, but those are not in the PSR-SX900 either.) If there is indeed not much in the PSR that doesn't exist (identically or bettered) in the MODX, that further reduces the PSR's appeal for someone who owns a MODX and doesn't care about accompaniment features.

Originally Posted by Abdol
You can always trigger the voices of MODX with PA1000 and Yamahafy the out put of your performance.
That actually wouldn't work so well. While it's a nice feature that the PA1000 can integrate external voices over MIDI, it's a little clumsy in implementation on the Korg side, and the MODX is also a bit clumsy on the receiving side, making that probably a particularly awkward combination. But it might be worth playing with using the PA1000 or some other board to trigger MODX sounds sometimes just to get the aftertouch! For the most part, though, I'll probably be perfectly content playing Yamaha parts on the MODX, Korg parts on the PA1000.

Originally Posted by Sebs
Thanks for clarifying this. I thought all keyboards with multiple sound engines were 'workstations' - sounds like the workstations are the complex ones to use as it's like having a DAW on the keyboard.
Keyboards with multitrack editable linear sequencers are workstations. There are workstations with a single sound engine (most of them, probably), and there are boards with multiple sound engines that are not workstations. It's the ability to create a complete composistion a track at a time that makes something a workstation, based on the most common use of the term. It is indeed like having a DAW in the keyboard, except in most (not all) cases, no audio tracks, just MIDI. So, I guess DAW without the A. ;-) As for how complex it is, it depends what you need to do. Kronos can certainly be complex. But you can also assemble presets of your favorite sounds and combinations, and use its Set List screen to just switch among your favorite sounds while playing, and that's not very complicated at all.

Originally Posted by Sebs
I didn't know there was a keyboard corner on this forum.
He was referring to this: http://forums.musicplayer.com/ubbthreads.php/forums/18/1/The_Keyboard_Corner

I missed your response but if you're interested here:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/

there are some comparisons between waveforms in Montage/MOTIF, and PSR/Tyros/Genos. Not necessarily a thorough one, but enough I guess.

The entire voice set of Montage is probably in Genos (other than the stage voice like some pianos are exclusive to Yamaha synths).

Regarding the mgavoices, cool and sweet voices (I really don't like the naming) they are all available in Motif and Montage. A megavoice is just an arpeggiator combined with a regular voice. Bad Mister has a nice post about it.

Hmmm not sure how clumsy it is on MODX but on Motif it is OK although it can be done much better.

The latest improvements on PSR series sounds interesting:



The portamento problem is solved. So apparently it has a smooth portamento.

The Watariat (from Istanbul Strings) has seamless crossfading between samples. It also has velocity-sensitive speed control (for portamento I guess), REVO SFX kit (not available in SX series). These are nice features the problem is the PSR editor is very basic, and unless you don't buy Genos, you wont have access to the waveforms! This has been the trend for PSR S series. Not sure about the SX.

Last edited by Abdol; 04/29/21 10:40 PM.

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Originally Posted by Abdol
Regarding the mgavoices, cool and sweet voices (I really don't like the naming) they are all available in Motif and Montage.
Here's a good link explaining what they use these terms to describe: https://hub.yamaha.com/insider-tips-super-articulation-part-1-saxophone-voices/

But yes, most Genos voices are in the Montage/MODX... as I said, the main things you seem to lose are the Ensemble and SA2. The original SA stuff is there in another form, but not the SA2. The distinction is described at that same site you mentioned, at http://sandsoftwaresound.net/sa-and-sa2-yamahas-words/

Originally Posted by Abdol
Hmmm not sure how clumsy it is on MODX but on Motif it is OK although it can be done much better.
When it comes to MIDI, MODX is clumsy on the receiving side because you can't change which MIDI channel a Part responds to (unlike on the Motif). This also means you can't put two Parts on the same MIDI channel (unless you use the mode that puts ALL the parts on the same MIDI channel). There's also the related complication that a single playable instrument can be spread among multiple Parts, which also means it can be spread across multiple MIDI channels. This is an over-simplification, but it gives you the gist.

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The first is a Yamaha full-size 88 with weighted keys. The 2nd is a Folding Piano 88 for traveling. Both have 88 keys but they're miles apart. Just that I can't take my full-size keyboard in a travel bag so a MIDI controller type keyboard is it.

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Originally Posted by Chummy
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Chummy
That being said, brining 2 keyboards for every band rehearsal or gig is a big hassle... way more to carry and strain your back (and car).. having to bring a double tiered keyboard stand...
OTOH... it's very nice to have hammer action for piano and not for organ... and as you alluded to, with two boards, you can minimize the need for (and the hassles of) splits (generally needing to set them up ahead of time, having to have enough keys for each part, running out of keys and crossing over into the "wrong" part when soloing, often not being able to easily and samlessly change your right hand sound while your left hand sound keeps going, etc.)... and if a board fails (gets a drink spilled into it, gets dropped, whatever), you can still get through the gig on the other board.

True. Everything depends of course on how much you're being paid it at all for the gig, and how big is your act. Ideally it's more fun to have 2 keyboards with different actions and no splits available, but what I said above may detract from the fun factor and is not always nessecary. If your main income is from gigging then that's another story .. same goes for having roadies then you can go as wild as you want.

Quote
It doesn't have to be way more to carry and strain your back... the hammer action can be a 24 lb casio, the board above could be any of a number of boards in, say, the 8-15 lb range. A double-tiered stand like the K&M 1880+18881 stacker moves in one piece with the top tier attached, so is no harder to deal with than a single tier stand... and it only weighs about 8 lbs... the difference between the 1 and 2 tier version is negligible. I'm just saying there are solutions to most of the things you don't like about a 2-board rig, if one wants its benefits. It does take more space andmore setup/breakdown time, though.

Those lightweight hammer action compact Casio keyboards don't have the best keybeds whatsoever. It's a bit less than decent at best, even the newer models that I've seen. Compromising on keyboard action for the sake of being able to carry one more keyboard is a bad advice. But then again it also depends on what you play and your skill level. If you're not a pianist and just play some chords on a pop band on the bottom keyboard utilizing mostly the midrange, than you don't even need 88 keys not to mention triple sensor keyboard and realistic piano action. and then sure, get a 76 weighted and sa small synth/organ on top.

The OP or anyone else for that matter knows his own situation the best, which is why one should look at the principles and apply them in his own domain, cause some of them may not even be relevant to him/her.


Guys, I've noticed that there are two types of musician who bring much more gear than is necessary to their gigs. One is amateur, and takes great pleasure in using the equipment. The other is pro and does sufficiently important gigs to justify lots of time and effort expended for a slightly better result. Work-a-day musicians think a lot about what they can dispense with, so as to save their energy or so as to get to the second gig on time.

I play many instruments, and I have a policy of bringing no more than two to any gig. Sometimes bandleaders press me to bring three, and then I say, I want extra money for that. That usually ends the discussion. Typically I bring just trumpet, or piano, or trumpet and another instrument I play. I've never brought two keyboards to a gig. Often I have to bring some PA, and I get little help unloading and setting it up, because the other musicians are too old or arrive too late. I long for the day when I can say: "You young fellers, bring the PA, I'm just bringing an instrument."

I do recommend having a few more accessories than the absolute minimum (spare cables, reading lamp, a fold-up music stand, a cheap spare mic and so on) but some of these things can be left in a bag which lives in your car - particularly if you've not spent much on them. My car kit also includes a multi-voltage power unit and a tiny sustain pedal, because I know I might forget the main accessory bag, or something might break. There's nothing worse than being at a gig with a piano that doesn't work. If I have to switch cars or move my car to a remote car park, I make sure I have that bag.


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I've never brought two keyboards to a gig.
...
There's nothing worse than being at a gig with a piano that doesn't work.

Doesn't the 2nd sentence refute the strategy in the 1st sentence?


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote
I've never brought two keyboards to a gig.
...
There's nothing worse than being at a gig with a piano that doesn't work.

Doesn't the 2nd sentence refute the strategy in the 1st sentence?

It probably means the person finally bought the one stage piano that would never fail eek


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Originally Posted by mmathew
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote
I've never brought two keyboards to a gig.
...
There's nothing worse than being at a gig with a piano that doesn't work.

Doesn't the 2nd sentence refute the strategy in the 1st sentence?

It probably means the person finally bought the one stage piano that would never fail eek


LOL. That cracked me up. Here is how Yanni does it:

[Linked Image]

As you can see they're all the same. If you read about his setup, the reason why he has multiple of these keyboards is exactly the same reason: if sh!t happens...

So it really depends on what you're doing. If it's a bar, wedding, church, etc that you can just say sorry and not get paid, go with only one. But if thousands of people already paid for the tickets, a hall has been rented, etc then failure is not an option even if its probability is 1%.

Last edited by Abdol; 05/04/21 08:11 AM.

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Originally Posted by Abdol
So it really depends on what you're doing. If it's a bar, wedding, church, etc that you can just say sorry and not get paid, go with only one. But if thousands of people already paid for the tickets, a hall has been rented, etc then failure is not an option even if its probability is 1%.
A bar, okay. But honestly, if it's a wedding, I think it would be unprofessional to not have a backup plan. This is a (hopefully) once-in-a-lifetime event for the people who hired you. If you're supposed to be playing as they walk down the aisle, saying, "sorry, keyboard failed, don't pay me" doesn't really cut it, IMO. At a minimum, I'd have my tiny 6-pound Korg Microstation in the car. ;-)

I always prefer to have 2 at a gig (and sometimes more), for a variety of reasons some of which have been mentioned... not just having backup, but having different actions, different controls (like synth knobs or organ drawbars), not having to pre-plan tons of split combinations or worry about running out of keys for a given part or accidentally crossing a split point, being able to easily change sounds for either hand alone at any time without worrying about any sound glitching or cutting off, etc., though some boards, themselves, are better handling some of these kinds of things internally than others. And of course, these things are not issues for all players... sometimes you get hired to play piano and that's the only sound or action you need. But Yanni doesn't need that much merely for redundancy (you're not going to have 3+ boards fail simultaneously), but he presumably also wants to be able to easily move between sounds without interrupting his flow with tons of button-pushing to keep changing sounds among fewer boards, or deal with the kinds of split or sound-changing limitations I mentioned.

But there are times where traveling with a single board makes sense, like multi-band gigs where you have to be on and off in 5 minutes, casual stuff like playing at a friend's party, some rehearsals, gigs you're getting to via public transit or where you can't get your vehicle remotely close to where you're playing (assuming again the stakes aren't too high). So I get when people are looking for something that is as close as possible to a do-it-all board. But for the most part, I think it's not worth the trade-offs. Heck, it's tough for me to get everything I want even out of even two boards. ;-) (And especially since I add one more criteria, I want my travel boards to be lightweight!)

Last edited by anotherscott; 05/04/21 10:02 AM.
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Yes.


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