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Joined: Feb 2021
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Oh I have not made up my mind at all. The Kawai K200 is calling me too, gently but persistent. It's like I have two children and no one likes one of them so I spend all my time defending that one but I actually love them both.
Dang I wish it were easy.
Thanks so much you guys this really is helpful for helping me to understand what I myself am thinking.
Foresooth
Yamaha Clavinova with nice sound but unfortunately sticky keys
Two more cheap digital pianos
A soundless keyboard for data entry to computer/synthesize/mixer I don't know if that counts
Looking for a real acoustic piano

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Originally Posted by Foresooth
Oh I have not made up my mind at all. The Kawai K200 is calling me too, gently but persistent. It's like I have two children and no one likes one of them so I spend all my time defending that one but I actually love them both.
Dang I wish it were easy.
Thanks so much you guys this really is helpful for helping me to understand what I myself am thinking.
Foresooth
Yamaha Clavinova with nice sound but unfortunately sticky keys
Two more cheap digital pianos
A soundless keyboard for data entry to computer/synthesize/mixer I don't know if that counts
Looking for a real acoustic piano

Sounds like you are leaning toward the Essex. And, there is nothing wrong with that, if it is what you like best.

As I mentioned earlier, we all have our piano preferences; biases may not be the best word to use, however, based on our own piano experiences, both good and bad, we form an opinion, or preference, if you will. I'm not so sure piano bias is a bad thing; it is just an indication that we have a strong preference, again, based on our own experiences.

But in order to have a preference, one way or another, you just have to get out and try some different pianos! If you like the one you choose, that is starting off on the right track... smile

Good luck!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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Let me add my biased opinion. If in a few years you want to upgrade your piano, might you get a better return on the Kawai than the Essex? And in the US at least, the Kawai carries a full 10 year transferable warranty. It's been several years since I looked over an Essex upright at a Steinway store. The fit and finish on the Essex, at that time, did not come close to either Kawai or Yamaha. This was a Pearl River sourced Essex. This was true all across the models they had on the floor there, including a 5 foot something grand piano. The Pearl River pianos that were also available around here then had a better fit and finish to my eye. The Kawai will have the Millinnium III action too if that is a factor for you.

Whichever piano you decide to buy I hope you enjoy it immensely and remember there is no rush. Have a great time shopping.


David



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I wish I could change the title of this thread now as I have taken the advice of some of you and slowed down a bit to see what else may be available. (I had pressured myself to make a decision in one day because I was so afraid that lockdown would happen again and then I would not be able to try out any pianos.) I may go look at a Kawai KX-21 which the owner says was bought new in 2008.
(I have to put a 'K' in front of the serial number in order to get that age from the 'piano age calculator', otherwise I get a much older age). It is made in China. It was intended to be budget friendly when it was being sold new by Kawai. The owner is asking $3800CAD($3000USD) which I think is too high for this model which was being discontinued already when they bought it and indeed their ad has been up for a month. I know it's the older, discontinued, (all wood?) action and was made in a factory where the labour costs were lower. Would anyone be willing to suggest a fair offer price for this piano? That's assuming it plays perfectly, I would of course go to see it with the technician - the same technician that adored the much higher priced 7-year old Essex EUP116 so this should be interesting at the least ... Owner says they are selling because they upgraded to a grand, which leaves me a bit puzzled, why didn't the dealership take their trade in? Also if they are such an enthusiastic player then would the KX-21 be worn out? It does look beautiful, and I have two adult sons at home who while beginner players seem to particularly enjoy a big sound especially at the bottom and it's the only one we'll look at that is 48"

So grateful for all of you - even the ones that are shall we say 'opinionated' -

----------------------------
Foresooth

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Originally Posted by Foresooth
I wish I could change the title of this thread now as I have taken the advice of some of you and slowed down a bit to see what else may be available. (I had pressured myself to make a decision in one day because I was so afraid that lockdown would happen again and then I would not be able to try out any pianos.) I may go look at a Kawai KX-21 which the owner says was bought new in 2008.
(I have to put a 'K' in front of the serial number in order to get that age from the 'piano age calculator', otherwise I get a much older age). It is made in China. It was intended to be budget friendly when it was being sold new by Kawai. The owner is asking $3800CAD($3000USD) which I think is too high for this model which was being discontinued already when they bought it and indeed their ad has been up for a month. I know it's the older, discontinued, (all wood?) action and was made in a factory where the labour costs were lower. Would anyone be willing to suggest a fair offer price for this piano? That's assuming it plays perfectly, I would of course go to see it with the technician - the same technician that adored the much higher priced 7-year old Essex EUP116 so this should be interesting at the least ... Owner says they are selling because they upgraded to a grand, which leaves me a bit puzzled, why didn't the dealership take their trade in? Also if they are such an enthusiastic player then would the KX-21 be worn out? It does look beautiful, and I have two adult sons at home who while beginner players seem to particularly enjoy a big sound especially at the bottom and it's the only one we'll look at that is 48"

So grateful for all of you - even the ones that are shall we say 'opinionated' -

----------------------------
Foresooth

Nothing wrong with expanding your search, or at least slowing it down a bit in order to broaden your piano horizon.

As for the Kawai KX-21, I don't think I've ever heard of that particular model, at least here in the US, and I did not think Kawai built any pianos in China. Of course, I could be wrong about that (Kawai made in China). I did Google Kawai KX-21 and it appears to be a model not sold in the US, but I could be wrong.

I have an older model Kawai K-48A, a 48" upright from 1969, and I like it a lot, and play it often. I purchased it from the estate of a piano teacher and full-time Church organist. Her son, who was the seller, said the piano was his mother's pride and joy. And, it was one of the few used pianos I've ever looked at that was actually in tune when I played it. So, it was well cared for during it's long life.

As for the "opinionated" opinions, I was thinking everyone here is "opinionated" in one way or another. smile

Not sure I've been helpful here, but I hope I have; that was my intention, anyway.

Good luck!

Rick


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Here is a KX-21 thread from, well, 2008: http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/234986/kawai-k2-v-kawai-kx-21.html

The price they paid NEW back then isn't much more than the asking price you listed above. The seller for the piano you are looking at probably didn't trade it in at the dealer because the dealer would only give them peanuts for it, so they thought they could get more via a private sale. People think old (as in not brand new) pianos are worth soooo much money, but in most cases (not all), an old piano is just an old piano.

Since you are welcoming "opinionated" advice, here is my general consensus on Chinese instrument factories. Lots of people here will agree with me, as this is the very place I got my own information from after being here and paying attention for the last 16 years, but others will disagree with all their energy. I also have a lot of piano tech friends "in real life" who are willing to talk shop candidly with me quite frequently. To each their own. Also, Chinese instruments are getting better. 10 years ago, things were really horrible. 10 years from now and things might actually be amazing?

Yes, great things come out of China--iPhones, toys, some electronics, etc--but when it comes to instruments whether it be pianos, violins, etc, they aren't so good, generally. Pianos are the trickiest because they can seem awesome at first, but you can have identical pianos next to each other with very different results. So, take an amazing piano out of China. Get it home. You actually play it because you don't view it as furniture. Just two or three years go by, it's not working the same any more. Your tech comes by and gets it playing nicely again, but they have to put in triple the work they would than if it were another piano. Only three months go by this time. It doesn't seem to play the way you like. Tech comes back, but now there isn't anything more they can do with it. You sell it after only a few years. No one wants it if they do a simple PianoBuyer search. Now you are stuck with an instrument that you have only had for 3, 6, 10 years and you hate it. Now what? For barely a few more $$$, you could have gotten something from the Samick or Kawai factories in Indonesia, and that piano may last you 20, 30, 40 years. Or you could go all out and get something made in Europe that will last 40-60 years, or go full German or USA (S&S, CW) and last you 100 years.

There are people here with Chinese pianos and think they are the best thing since sliced bread. I am happy for them (not being sarcastic), but I have played 1000s of pianos professionally (pre-fibromyalgia) and I could tell roughly where pianos were made without looking up the stencil on the fallboard just from the way they played.

But with the way you seem to want a piano to work and the way you seem like it's going to be played A LOT, then unfortunately you need to do a lot of piano shopping to get something you will be happy with down the road.

Yes, there is a place for Chinese pianos, ABSOLUTELY, my own friends have them and they are just fine for them, but I have a feeling you are stuck on "big sound" and ignoring other aspects. Get a decent M&H50 from the 70s or 80s for $1000 and you will be way happier than with an Essex if you you want big sound as your main criteria.

You mileage will vary, and my reply will get a lot of counterpoints, and I am looking forward to those counterpoints as I am always willing to be wrong and "update" my thinking if appropriate, and you should read the forthcoming counterpoints, too. smile But everything I said here is just a summary of things I have read on these very forums over the past several years, coupled with my own outside research and talking with my own techs over the recent years.


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!

Current:
1998 PETROF Model IV Chippendale
LEGO Grand Piano (IDEAS 031|21323)
YAMAHA PSR-520

Past:
2017 Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony
1991 Kawai 602-M Console in Oak
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I decided that a piano is worth trading in two weeks of holiday for so I've got more money now and I'm back to preferring new!

* Kawai K200 new, new for $6168.32CAD($4860USD) with Kawai's 10 year transferrable warranty, versus

* Ritmüller UH121, a floor model reduced to $6995CAD($5520USD), still sold as new with a 10 year warranty

I just asked the Ritmüller dealer if that was the best price and we'll see

(It makes one a bit crazy piano shopping, eh?)

------
Foresooth
No acoustic piano at all yet, just inferior digitals :-(

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Originally Posted by Foresooth
I decided that a piano is worth trading in two weeks of holiday for so I've got more money now and I'm back to preferring new!

* Kawai K200 new, new for $6168.32CAD($4860USD) with Kawai's 10 year transferrable warranty, versus

* Ritmüller UH121, a floor model reduced to $6995CAD($5520USD), still sold as new with a 10 year warranty
------
(
My my - the Ritmuller UH121 is one of PianoBuyer's Staff Picks. Take a look....

https://www.pianobuyer.com/article/staff-picks-recommendations/

Features: All wood hornbeam action parts ~ Extruded aluminum rail ~ Spruce backposts ~ Molded maple capped, vertically laminated bridge bridges ~ Slow close fallboard ~ Brass hardware ~ Butcher-block spruce key bed ~ Premium Siberian spruce keys ~ Practice middle pedal ~ 17 maple cross ply laminated pinblock ~ Sand-cast plate, CNC processed ~ Solid spruce soundboard ~ German Röslau strings ~ Steel, cut thread, nickel plated tuning pins ~ Warranty: 10 year parts & labor

Very promising.


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It's done! I did it, I signed on the dotted line. I bought a _new_ Essex EUP116E from the Steinway dealership. They got the price under the price of the Ritmüller, although still over the price of the Kawai K200.
It should come in a couple of weeks and the dealership is lending me an Essex EUP123E to play in the meantime.
This has been a great forum to go to for a bit of back and forth while deciding - even though most of you have much better pianos. I have appreciated your humanity especially as we meet so few humans these days.

I'm pumped. I think all four of us are going to get so much pleasure out of this addition to our home.

--------
Foresooth
Essex EUP116E

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They are lending you a piano while you wait? Wow! When my parents bought a huge organ when I was a kid, all we got was a toy keyboard to hold us over. smile


I do music stuffs
Yep, I have a YouTube channel!

Current:
1998 PETROF Model IV Chippendale
LEGO Grand Piano (IDEAS 031|21323)
YAMAHA PSR-520

Past:
2017 Charles Walter 1500 in semi-polish ebony
1991 Kawai 602-M Console in Oak
Joined: Feb 2021
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It was a smart move by them. I think they could see me wavering - if there isn't a piano right there to bring home then one feels like one might as well go home and think it over one last time before committing. I was at that point when they came over and said I could have their rental piano at my home while waiting for my own to come so I said, Done!

-----------
Foresooth
Essex EUP116E

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Congratulations on your new Essex EUP116E upright piano!

I'm happy for you, and wish you many years of enjoyment with it! smile

Post pics when you get it delivered, or even a video!

Rick


Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel
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