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Yeah, pretty much what I was thinking. Our physical pianos are constantly changing daily based on the environment they are in. So many factors and variables can change the sound. It might not be noticed daily, but over time those subtle changes to the variables would add up.
Also, I think if you could 'speed up the changes' with like a time warp. Say ' under these conditions over the next 6 months with my piano in this environment, it now sounds like x'.

It might help me stop playing with presets and things and just let the preset evolve organically.

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And I am sure they can do that!

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CG, сould you add midi messages to your audio examples. Then other users will be able to compare the sound on their systems and in their programs. It may not be very clear what feel and speed of playing on your keyboard certain midi speeds produce. But when you talk about the peculiarities of the sound at certain midi speeds - this can be understandable because other users can check these midi files and compare the sound.


Comparing Pianoteq to the Garritan Library:

- it may be necessary to set the "unison width" value to 1.4-1.6 in Pianoteq for comparison by the library.

-Library sounds ~ 12dB quieter than Pianoteq. (when compared out of the box). You need to lower the volume on the Pianoteq for comparison.

-the pedal does not work properly in the library. I can't use the pickup pedal - when old harmonies are "cleaned up" and a new play is added on top (this comes out awkwardly). The half-pedal cuts off the sound and has no duration. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

-In the library, the endings of chords in staccato sound artificially. They seem to break off. It doesn't sound neat. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

- the staccato game is very strange at the library. The tails of the notes are not very neatly chopped off. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

- the high notes are a little more rounded at the library. I have to agree.

- I hear recording noise when playing high notes. And the noise is cut off when the note is released. Not very nice. Not natural. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

-the library has a few notes that are not tuned the way I would like. And nothing can be done about it. Pianoteq has no problem with this ..

-but the biggest problem is the limited set of layers in the library. This is clearly felt with your fingers when you play (even on my keyboard, which uses rubber sensors (like a TV remote ... in principle, like almost all other keyboards). This is a jump in timbre between layers. It is simply impossible to practice. Pianoteq has no problem with this. ..

- all the same, the development of the timbre of the library is more natural. And it can be well used in a mix for some kind of music. But this is not suitable for daily activities. Especially if later you need to play a real instrument. The library does not react and does not interact with the performer as fully as Pianoteq does.

CG, you kind of have a nice instrument from Yamaha. With real mechanics. Have you thought about putting your optical sensor into it in order to find out and correlate (compare) the midi values at different speeds? What values does the tool give and what can be obtained from your measurements? Curious if there is any standardization in this? How do the midi speed values for different hammers correlate at different speeds (bass and treble)? This is a rather curious question.

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« This is a jump in timbre between layers. It is simply impossible to practice. Pianoteq has no problem with this. .. »

Perhaps the VSL products have not this drawback. I have read Synchron product have 60 levels (each level covers 2 MIDI values), and Vienna Imperial has up to 100 levels !


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Originally Posted by ambrozy
Originally Posted by Pete14
So you’re asking for a virtual instrument that can go out of tune just like your acoustic does? Thank you, but NO!

Actually all pianos are always out of tune and not because they are not tuned precisely but because of their design, struck strings have inharmonicity and because of that octaves for example needs to be wider than perfect theoretical octaves to sound clean, in pianoteq pro you can control that octave stretch to your liking and also unison width which when tuned perfectly will decrease sustain (default setting is very slightly out of tune), try it for yourself, real acoustic pianos behave in similar way, but only those of very high quality, cheaper ones are usually not made precisely enouhg that strings in unisons can be tuned perfeclty

Well look at you, going into full-nerd mode. Still, NO!

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
- It overreacts in velocities and makes it easy to produce loud-notes in a non-linear fashion. It reminds me my struggles with Kawai digital pianos. Apparently needs touch curve adjustments
- The highest octaves are loud. I've had the same problem with the Cybrid initially which can be explained by the fact I measure velocity only. On a real piano it's the *energy* of the hammer that matters and energy is "mass x velocity^2" and because hammers progressively become lighter, in the Cybrid controller code I had to introduce gradual correction to the produced MIDI velocity the upper I go, so that the response feels linear.
Here's my attempt to repro the issue in a fair and semi-rigorous method:



This plays the higher octave keys with MIDI velocity 5 to 40 in increments of 5. I made a mistake and the test goes above high C, but it does not affect the results.

Keep an eye on the velocity graph and keep an eye on the green audio level indicator.

This is the waveform:

[Linked Image]

I could not see, hear, or perceive any issues. This is a linear velocity curve and, to me, it's behaving exactly as expected. For different behavior in the higher octaves, the curve would have to be modified.

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I'm not sure I was understood correctly. It's not about programming it through MIDI and then observing the produced volume. I'm not even sure it's the volume that's the problem. Rather the attack, the harmonic content or something like that.

Unfortunately it seems the only way to notice it is to just play it very lightly and listen with your ears. It acts weirdly and is unlike any acoustic, digital or virtual piano. It just plops a bit too much instead of creating a soft sound. Might be something related to the N1X MIDI but I'm not sure why that would be since the N1X is generating low enough MIDI velocities and works OK with other pianos.

Once again, listening to my demos it's not very obvious, so that wasn't a good demo. You just need to play it. I guess you may compare it to the NV10 internal sound. Just listen how the NV10 reacts to very light touch in high octaves and to gradual increase of the touch force. Then do the same with Pianoteq. It sounds like a machine gun (but that's a very big word, I'm using it to make my point, the effect is subtler than a machine gun but has the same characteristics)

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/07/21 06:52 PM.

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My thought was that MIDI would make it more objective, since you can see exactly what is being played and with what velocity. I'll play it by ear some more later to see if I understand it.

One thing to call out if you're comparing Pianoteq to CFX -- you'll want to make sure the volume for soft and loud are about comparable. Pianoteq makes it easy to adjust this with the Dynamics and Volume sliders.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
... Rather the attack, the harmonic content or something like that.
Is same problem evident on the Blüthner Model 1?

Last edited by Burkey; 02/07/21 09:21 PM.

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Originally Posted by navindra
Originally Posted by Osho
Start with NY Steinway D Player Close setting. Change the mic types to perfect-omni or other omni mics. I found that in my speaker+room system, they sounded better to my ears. I like to keep the Move the mics closer to each other or far away and see what you like.

I just changed my practice preset to use perfect-omni instead of the default and it's soooooo good!

Thanks a ton for this hint!

Would you use the player perspective for a recording as well?

Cool, I am glad it helped. No, I typically won't use the player perspective for a recording. But, I find it perfect for practicing, especially when listening with monitor speakers. I don't use headphones much, so I am not sure if that will be ideal for headphones.

Osho


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Then I tried using the "NY Player clean" (there's no "close", do you mean "clean", Osho?) and changed the mics to perfect-omni. Didn't make huge difference TBH, but I was on headphones anyway.
Yes, I meant NY Steinway D Player Clean. My bad.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Bottom line: I think Modartt might need to invest some time in creating customized settings for various digital pianos and controllers.
Yes, I agree with that. It may be that their presets are done by recording engineers who want a sound that just works for a studio - but IMHO, it is not the right for pianist playing at home wanting to feel like a grand piano is in their home.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.
I agree with this. And, this is precisely the reason why I find youtube videos (or audio recordings) of VSTs totally useful for deciding whether to buy a VST. They all sound wonderful in those audio recordings/youtube demos. But, when I play the VST with my fingers and listen with my ears, that's when I find whether I will actually like the VST or not.

Originally Posted by navindra
I could not see, hear, or perceive any issues. This is a linear velocity curve and, to me, it's behaving exactly as expected. For different behavior in the higher octaves, the curve would have to be modified.
I couldn't hear any issues either. But, as CG said, it is a playability issue and hard to communicate via a recording.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Can you post that improved patch somewhere to try it? I tried the default presets but they weren’t good. I’m not sure why they never put some well made presets and people have to tinker to improve upon the sound.
Here are the couple of preset fxp files that I like for practicing with monitor speakers. They have 0 reverb, so feel free to add some as per your taste, if so inclined.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/78uwaaeafo4d71l/NY%20Steinway%20D%20Player%20Clean%20Mod.fxp?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wnmt1mzs6gfqdsc/C.%20Bechstein%20DG%20Player%20Mod.fxp?dl=0

I wouldn't use these for recordings - but for practicing with speakers, I find them perfect in my room.

Osho


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Originally Posted by Bostonmoores
I had sort of a crazy thought that could make PianTeq really interesting. I had this thought because my real piano was just tuned and my piano tuner was telling me about what frequency it is at now, where he expects it to me next month with humidity and such, and finally when the summer hits...
So if you could plug in some variables into PianoTeq like last time you had the piano tuned, the climate you live in or country/region, the average temperature of the room the piano sits in, kind of heat: forced air, radiators, etc...all that stuff plays a part in the current sound/tuning of the instrument. Over time those variables change significantly.
So as time goes on with a certain preset would change based on this. PianoTeq could ping to get current weather conditions everytime it loads, and those slight adjustments could be made..

That would make Pianoteq more fun for me to pay each day...

Pianoteq already has this feature. There is a slider at the bottom: Condition. It can be set from "Mint" to "Worn". And, it basically ages the piano. Even the GUI changes to reflect the condition of the instrument smile.

Osho


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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Bostonmoores
I had sort of a crazy thought that could make PianTeq really interesting. I had this thought because my real piano was just tuned and my piano tuner was telling me about what frequency it is at now, where he expects it to me next month with humidity and such, and finally when the summer hits...
So if you could plug in some variables into PianoTeq like last time you had the piano tuned, the climate you live in or country/region, the average temperature of the room the piano sits in, kind of heat: forced air, radiators, etc...all that stuff plays a part in the current sound/tuning of the instrument. Over time those variables change significantly.
So as time goes on with a certain preset would change based on this. PianoTeq could ping to get current weather conditions everytime it loads, and those slight adjustments could be made..

That would make Pianoteq more fun for me to pay each day...

Pianoteq already has this feature. There is a slider at the bottom: Condition. It can be set from "Mint" to "Worn". And, it basically ages the piano. Even the GUI changes to reflect the condition of the instrument smile.

Osho

It is not automated, it would be cool if this function could evolve by itself day after day

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Originally Posted by stamkorg
It is not automated, it would be cool if this function could evolve by itself day after day

This is how we end up with Skynet.

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Originally Posted by loydb
Originally Posted by stamkorg
It is not automated, it would be cool if this function could evolve by itself day after day

This is how we end up with Skynet.

I am fine with this as long as Skynet builds robots that are so efficient that a 9' Concert grand acoustic piano can be produced for $1000 smile. Freedom of humanity is so overrated...:).

Osho


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Originally Posted by navindra
Modartt should invest here. If not in software, they should have a thick-skinned human resource -- a Modartt James on the forum to help diagnose these issues and identify the proper adjustments.

Being a French company, the rep would be: Modartt Jacques. 😁


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Originally Posted by loydb
This is how we end up with Skynet.


Welcome to the Skynet Piano Network (SPN)......... would you like to play an etude? :-)


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Originally Posted by SeaDrive
Originally Posted by loydb
This is how we end up with Skynet.


Welcome to the Skynet Piano Network (SPN)......... would you like to play an etude? :-)

What you don't like Etude's. I shall now take over your domicile and only play Etudes wink This is SPN!


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
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V7.2!

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Originally Posted by Scherbakov Alex
V7.2!

Interesting:

7.2.0 (2021/02/12)

  • NY Steinway D update: power/duration increased in the bass range, upper two octaves revoiced in the ppp-mp range.
  • Fixed bug in the harmonic and sustain pedals resonances.

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