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So, I think there's something wrong with high octave notes in Pianoteq. Even if I play REALLY quiet, it generates uncharacteristically loud, shrill and bright notes that click almost like a clock ticking there. I compare quietest versus loudest and it's almost the same, there's no linearity, almost no dynamics. Oddly enough the loudest tones seem to be softer in a way than the quietest ones 🙀 I compared it to the N1X and Garritan CFX and you can hear how different they are, very smooth, linear, high dynamic range, pleasant overtones, no shrill and piercing sound... Really not sure what's going on. You have some explanation?

Pianoteq - NY Steinway D Prelude

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Hmm ... from my perspective the most outstanding feature of all three recordings is that it sounds like someone hammering nails into wood (with surprising rapidity). Overlayered this hammering, there are additional tones.

The Garritan sounds best (unsurprisingly).


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, I think there's something wrong with high octave notes in Pianoteq. Even if I play REALLY quiet, it generates uncharacteristically loud, shrill and bright notes that click almost like a clock ticking there. I compare quietest versus loudest and it's almost the same, there's no linearity, almost no dynamics. Oddly enough the loudest tones seem to be softer in a way than the quietest ones 🙀 I compared it to the N1X and Garritan CFX and you can hear how different they are, very smooth, linear, high dynamic range, pleasant overtones, no shrill and piercing sound... Really not sure what's going on. You have some explanation?

Pianoteq - NY Steinway D Prelude

Yamaha N1X - CFX (binaural)

Garritan CFX

The pianoteq recording sounds like it could do with a tad more reverb and maybe a tad less hammer hardness.

To be fair to them, it sounds quite a bit better than version 4; however, obviously lots more improvement needed by all these methods of synthesis.

Last edited by Doug M.; 02/06/21 11:50 AM.

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I just tried pianoteq 7 and while it is improving it still gives me the feeling of playing a synthesizer. It doesn't inspire me.

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I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.

I've noticed it every time I play Pianoteq but never bothered analyzing it in depth. But there's real disconnect between what my mind expects playing softly in the high octaves and what's being heard. It sounds like not just the touch response is wrong there, but also the timbre variability in relation to touch...

I tried drawing a gradual volume decrease line in the note edit screen and while it tames down the rather loud notes, the bright nature with overly pronounced attack is still there and I don't know if I can change that only for these notes.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.

I've noticed it every time I play Pianoteq but never bothered analyzing it in depth. But there's real disconnect between what my mind expects playing softly in the high octaves and what's being heard. It sounds like not just the touch response is wrong there, but also the timbre variability in relation to touch...

I tried drawing a gradual volume decrease line in the note edit screen and while it tames down the rather loud notes, the bright nature with overly pronounced attack is still there and I don't know if I can change that only for these notes.

That sounds reasonable. Live, you're associating what you meant to come out with what did came out; listening afterwards, you're comparing the the recordings without that comparison.

Do you have a tool that can measure the velocity of the notes played? For instance: the question would be: are the sampled pianos playing more evenly than they should given changes in velocity that one didn't meant to play but actually did?

Last edited by Doug M.; 02/06/21 12:28 PM.

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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.

I've noticed it every time I play Pianoteq but never bothered analyzing it in depth. But there's real disconnect between what my mind expects playing softly in the high octaves and what's being heard. It sounds like not just the touch response is wrong there, but also the timbre variability in relation to touch...

I tried drawing a gradual volume decrease line in the note edit screen and while it tames down the rather loud notes, the bright nature with overly pronounced attack is still there and I don't know if I can change that only for these notes.

That sounds reasonable. Live, you're associating what you meant to come out with what did came out; listening afterwards, you're comparing the the recordings without that comparison.

Do you have a tool that can measure the velocity of the notes played? For instance: the question would be: are the sampled pianos playing more evenly than they should given changes in velocity that one didn't meant to play but actually did?

To clarify:

One way to objectively tell if the program were playing notes not according to your instructions would be to measure the key velocity with another program and line it up with the amplitude of the note.

(not suggesting your piano playing is off, although it might be, not so likely.)


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There are no unpredictable jumps. It’s very obvious: quite velocities would always produce bright attack notes. No need to measure and correlate.


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Though I really appreciate CG’s efforts to get to grips with Pianoteq, I’m not hearing what he’s hearing, so I guess we’ll basically agree to disagree. Each of us has a different set of ears and CG’s pair may be differently inclined than ours.

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Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize how different it is when listening to recordings and when playing the pianos. From the above demos it's not very obvious that the very soft touches I play result in some weirdly bright sound on Pianoteq, not necessarily loud but kind of hammered. On a recording the three aren't so much different than they are when played live... Not sure if I can make my point this way.

I've noticed it every time I play Pianoteq but never bothered analyzing it in depth. But there's real disconnect between what my mind expects playing softly in the high octaves and what's being heard. It sounds like not just the touch response is wrong there, but also the timbre variability in relation to touch...

I tried drawing a gradual volume decrease line in the note edit screen and while it tames down the rather loud notes, the bright nature with overly pronounced attack is still there and I don't know if I can change that only for these notes.

That sounds reasonable. Live, you're associating what you meant to come out with what did came out; listening afterwards, you're comparing the the recordings without that comparison.

Do you have a tool that can measure the velocity of the notes played? For instance: the question would be: are the sampled pianos playing more evenly than they should given changes in velocity that one didn't meant to play but actually did?

To clarify:

One way to objectively tell if the program were playing notes not according to your instructions would be to measure the key velocity with another program and line it up with the amplitude of the note.

(not suggesting your piano playing is off, although it might be, not so likely.)
Yes, your can even write your own MIDI velocity value displayer in about 10 lines of code (I wrote one in Java if anyone wants it).

Even better, you can send a specific velocity note to Pianoteq and record the audio it produces, then measure the amplitude and frequencies.

Last edited by Burkey; 02/06/21 10:18 PM.

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Just play the last 2-3 octaves as softly as possible. It’s immediately obvious. It can’t be heard on a recording because you don’t know how I played there. It’s a playability issue.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
- It overreacts in velocities and makes it easy to produce loud-notes in a non-linear fashion. It reminds me my struggles with Kawai digital pianos. Apparently needs touch curve adjustments
- The highest octaves are loud. I've had the same problem with the Cybrid initially which can be explained by the fact I measure velocity only. On a real piano it's the *energy* of the hammer that matters and energy is "mass x velocity^2" and because hammers progressively become lighter, in the Cybrid controller code I had to introduce gradual correction to the produced MIDI velocity the upper I go, so that the response feels linear.

When I have some time I will try to repro this and see if I can understand the problem.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
So, I first attempted to correct touch response with the Calibration procedure in Pianoteq. I followed the instructions closely, played quietly, louder, etc. Well, it ended up massively WRONG! It started behaving almost like a harpsichord. Not sure what's currently wrong with the calibration procedure and if anyone has managed to produce something, but I find it totally useless.

I agree, I don't understand the point of this calibration tool and find it to be totally useless as well. At best, it helps understand the capabilities of the controller, but I don't find the results useful.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Then I tried to manually change the curve. So, I got a relatively better response if I use a straight line that won't end in the upper right corner but will end slightly below. However the timbre dynamics suffered. It was a Kawai Déjà vu - you can tame the loudness but the timbre suffers. I'm sure note per note editing may help here but I didn't know how to do that in the demo version.

I think what you are saying is accurate -- if you modify the velocity curve in the way that you did, timbre dynamics are bound to suffer because the same MIDI range will be mapped to a truncated timbre range in Pianoteq.

One way to modify timbre dynamics I think would be to modify things like hammer hardness at different velocities.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Then I tried using the "NY Player clean" (there's no "close", do you mean "clean", Osho?) and changed the mics to perfect-omni. Didn't make huge difference TBH, but I was on headphones anyway.

There are binaural options as well, which I haven't tried since I don't use headphones. However you can adjust the head position and such so that it is individually customized.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
At that point I decided there's potential but was a bit exhausted in tinkering. Might continue some other time. Then I switched to the binaural CFX and was relieved. And then to Garritan CFX and was WOW!

I agree that it is exhausting until you get a workflow down, and totally agreed on presets. This is valuable feedback.

Modartt should invest here. If not in software, they should have a thick-skinned human resource -- a Modartt James on the forum to help diagnose these issues and identify the proper adjustments.

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I had sort of a crazy thought that could make PianTeq really interesting. I had this thought because my real piano was just tuned and my piano tuner was telling me about what frequency it is at now, where he expects it to me next month with humidity and such, and finally when the summer hits...
So if you could plug in some variables into PianoTeq like last time you had the piano tuned, the climate you live in or country/region, the average temperature of the room the piano sits in, kind of heat: forced air, radiators, etc...all that stuff plays a part in the current sound/tuning of the instrument. Over time those variables change significantly.
So as time goes on with a certain preset would change based on this. PianoTeq could ping to get current weather conditions everytime it loads, and those slight adjustments could be made..

That would make Pianoteq more fun for me to pay each day...

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So you’re asking for a virtual instrument that can go out of tune just like your acoustic does? Thank you, but NO!

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Extending that concept, I would also suggest that the virtual strings, hammers, action parts get broken from time to time and you have to pay Modartt for a replacement, so that you can play the same note again.

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/07/21 01:24 PM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Extending that concept, I would also suggest that the virtual strings, hammers, action parts get broken from time to time and you have to pay Modartt for a replacement, so that you can play the same note again.

I thought that Pianoteq pro allowed unison detuning (detuning of individual strings)?


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Originally Posted by Pete14
So you’re asking for a virtual instrument that can go out of tune just like your acoustic does? Thank you, but NO!

Actually all pianos are always out of tune and not because they are not tuned precisely but because of their design, struck strings have inharmonicity and because of that octaves for example needs to be wider than perfect theoretical octaves to sound clean, in pianoteq pro you can control that octave stretch to your liking and also unison width which when tuned perfectly will decrease sustain (default setting is very slightly out of tune), try it for yourself, real acoustic pianos behave in similar way, but only those of very high quality, cheaper ones are usually not made precisely enouhg that strings in unisons can be tuned perfeclty

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So Pianoteq Pro version is too perfect and that is why CyberGene doesn't like it (JK) LOL


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if you want to go down the route of having virtual piano mimic acoustic piano then we must allow the possibility of rodents in the piano! Neighbor had them and so did my aunt in upright pianos. So no I don't want Modartt to model it perfectly smile Sorry if TMI wink


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Originally Posted by Bostonmoores
I had sort of a crazy thought that could make PianTeq really interesting. I had this thought because my real piano was just tuned and my piano tuner was telling me about what frequency it is at now, where he expects it to me next month with humidity and such, and finally when the summer hits...
So if you could plug in some variables into PianoTeq like last time you had the piano tuned, the climate you live in or country/region, the average temperature of the room the piano sits in, kind of heat: forced air, radiators, etc...all that stuff plays a part in the current sound/tuning of the instrument. Over time those variables change significantly.
So as time goes on with a certain preset would change based on this. PianoTeq could ping to get current weather conditions everytime it loads, and those slight adjustments could be made..

That would make Pianoteq more fun for me to pay each day...

Yes,
In the same philosophy,
Some years ago I proposed such a feature on the Pianoteq forum.
The idea was to introduce on option that allows an automatic but minor detuning day after day of use.
This very small changes every day (clearly noticeable only after a couple of weeks) could help to prevent the boring effect that we can have with virtual instruments.
The idea was not retained wink

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