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Pin without Twist
145in/lbs torque presents: the pin that won't store twist
video by UprightTooner
soundscape by Piano411

Originally Posted by UprightTooner
In the video, each demo starts with the pointer at zero. After the pin is turned back and forth a few times and the tuning lever is removed, the pointer is close, but not quite at zero. There is no longer any force from the tuning hammer, yet there is twist in the pin. Obviously this is residual twist that the friction from the pinblock is maintaining.


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Really?

It looks to me that you are trolling Upright Tooners video?

Why would you do that?

??

-chris


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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
It looks to me that you are trolling Upright Tooners video?
No, not at all. I explained numerous times that his video didn't show that the tuning pin stored a twist. I said that it was right there for anyone to look. No one bothered. I repeated over and over that you needed to slow it down and zoom in to see what was really happening. He stated doing it old school by putting his face closer to the monitor was good enough. He ended with "There is no longer any force from the tuning hammer, yet there is twist in the pin. Obviously this is residual twist that the friction from the pinblock is maintaining."

To me, it is obvious that what he stated is not happening. Words were not enough, so this video should highlight some of what I have been trying to explain.

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Piano 411, it sounds to me like you took LSD and set your chickens free. Chickens driving Cadillacs to Washington DCeeee. I took LSD and set my chickens freeeeee.....


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Originally Posted by piano411
Pin without Twist
145in/lbs torque presents: the pin that won't store twist
video by UprightTooner
soundscape by Piano411

Originally Posted by UprightTooner
In the video, each demo starts with the pointer at zero. After the pin is turned back and forth a few times and the tuning lever is removed, the pointer is close, but not quite at zero. There is no longer any force from the tuning hammer, yet there is twist in the pin. Obviously this is residual twist that the friction from the pinblock is maintaining.


Unfortunately Piano411 has again chosen to misrepresent both what I said and the evidence that I provided in a derogatory way. This is called playing the man, not the ball.

For the sake of Truth and to show respect for this Forum and it's viewers, below is the complete, unedited video including the caption. I will be the first to admit that it is imperfect, yet still illustrates the phenomenon of residual twist. Take note of the frames around 0:05 and 0:37, which are the pertinent before and after views. The first is before the tuning lever is applied to the pin, the later when it is removed for the 145 in/lb demo. For the 175 in/lb demo, the before and after views are 1:18 and 1:53.

Folks, I did this demo for other's enlightenment, not my own satisfaction or notoriety. Consider Piano411's intent in what he has done with it.

"Demonstration of the twist of a piano tuning pin. The card with graduations is fastened to a wire that is attached to the foot of the pin. The pointer is attached to the the becket hole at the head of the pin. As the pin is rotated back and forth in a piece of pinblock material (with a tuning lever, not shown), you can see the amount of twist the pin develops as indicated by the pointer and the graduated card. This twist is mostly in the head of the pin. When torque is released, there is a small amount of residual twist. This is indicated by the pointer not quite returning to zero. The residual twist is in the portion of the pin in the pinblock and is maintained by friction. No marine mammals were culturally exploited during the making of this video."




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What you, Bradley Snook, have done is childish and sick. Shame on you.


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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
What you, Bradley Snook, have done is childish and sick. Shame on you.

Well maybe. Another way to look at is by considering the form of the content. First it is a deliberate jump off from another Topic:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3075433/the-tuning-pin-twist.html#Post3075433

The problem with this sort of thing, and especially quoting a partial post from one Topic to another (I forget just what that is called...), is the lack of context. That's why I have included a link to the other Topic, which I have also chosen to abandon.

Then there is the genre of the post. It is comic mockery and therefore should not be taken seriously, even if it was meant to be serious. And then there is the specific use of the cartoon form, which is obviously an imitation of a meme I posted in the last post of the linked Topic (and which I will include for everyone's entertainment again as I say goodbye to this Topic also). But consider, imitation is the most sincere form of flattery, so I should feel complimented. smile

On to something else. But I wonder if I will ever get this chewing gum off the bottom of my shoe...



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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
For the sake of Truth and to show respect for this Forum and it's viewers, below is the complete, unedited video including the caption. I will be the first to admit that it is imperfect, yet still illustrates the phenomenon of residual twist. Take note of the frames around 0:05 and 0:37, which are the pertinent before and after views. The first is before the tuning lever is applied to the pin, the later when it is removed for the 145 in/lb demo. For the 175 in/lb demo, the before and after views are 1:18 and 1:53.

The video was slowed down and zoomed in so that it could be better seen. Because there was hand weigh on the hammer the entire time, very careful attention had to be made to see when the pointer stopped and what exactly it was doing.

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Folks, I did this demo for other's enlightenment, not my own satisfaction or notoriety. Consider Piano411's intent in what he has done with it.
There is no notoriety involved in any of this. It is just a video. And, my intent was show that what actually happened. It was claimed that there was twist being stored in the pinblock. I tried in vain with words to get others to look closely at what was there.

The point, for me, is very clear. There were 5 turns of the pins. It did not demonstrate twist in any of them. And, on the 5th try, we can clearly see with the shadows that the pointer and card are now moving in different planes from the beginning. Again, this clearly indicates that the pin has been set to a different position in the tuning pin hole, not that there is a stored twist.

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I'm no Lawyer, but I'd be concerned with using other peoples material without their written permission first.
Let alone to use it in a way that is insulting. When in fact is a was a very cool video.

-chris


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Bradley,

Everyone is entitled to an opinion/viewpoint. We are free to express that viewpoint here as that is what this forum is about. However, even though we might be thoroughly convinced that our viewpoint is correct, if after discussion, others do not share our viewpoint, it is generally best to just drop it and move on to something else. This generally tends to preserve the professional decorum of this format, rather than attempting at all cost to prove we are right (which simply antagonize people). Maybe we are right, but its more important to be nice, than to be right.

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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Let alone to use it in a way that is insulting.
Not sure why you find that insulting. The video simply showed that there was no twist in the pins. UnrightTooner apparently feels complimented and flattered because he thinks it was in response to his looney tunes meme. It's just background music/sound. Perhaps piano music would have been better. Maybe I'll try that next time.

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I feel like it is important to restate that 145in/lbs of torque is outside the normal operating limits for tuning pins. Tuning pins should be in the 80-120in/lbs range. You can sometimes get away with less, but anything over 120in/lbs, and you really have to fight with the pin. At the very least, this pushes and pulls the pin to all positions in the block. The more torque you have to deal with, the more the pin shifts/flexes in the hole.

This is what we see in round 5 of the video. The operator was pushing down on the tuning hammer (at 90 degrees to the wires), turning the pin clock-wise. This force is what flexed the pin into a different position of the block. You can see the pointer is not going straight up-and down any more, like in the other examples, but instead going at an angle with the gauge moving at an angle to the left. This means that the head of the pin is now tilted to the right causing this deflection in reading. If it were a stored pinblock twist, the pointer would still be bouncing straight up-and-down like the other examples.

Describing all of this by words is very complicated, but when we look at the video, it is much easier to see exactly what is happening. In all of those cases, there is zero twist present. It is simply not there.

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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Let alone to use it in a way that is insulting.
Not sure why you find that insulting. The video simply showed that there was no twist in the pins. UnrightTooner apparently feels complimented and flattered because he thinks it was in response to his looney tunes meme. It's just background music/sound. Perhaps piano music would have been better. Maybe I'll try that next time.


Sure, i'll be glad to explain my reaction and why i thought you were just being insulting.
First you didn't get permission to use his video.
Second, you chose music and especially sound effects that demeans the original video. Much in the same way that you could get nearly any video and add fart sounds would do.

If you had truly wanted to enhance the video and prove your point. Then it seems to me that a descriptive analysis would have been more appropriate for the purpose of helping understand what is going on. Maybe even adding another pointer or something.

Jeff sure is being a gentlemen about it.

-chris


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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
I'm no Lawyer, but I'd be concerned with using other peoples material without their written permission first.
Let alone to use it in a way that is insulting. When in fact is a was a very cool video.

-chris
You mean like this?....
quote:
'Do not post any defamatory, abusive, profane, threatening, offensive, or illegal materials. Do not post any information or other material protected by copyright without the permission of the copyright owner. By posting material, the posting party warrants and represents that he or she owns the copyright with respect to such material or has received permission from the copyright owner. In addition, the posting party grants The Piano Technicians Guild and users of this site the nonexclusive right and license to display, copy, publish, distribute, transmit, print, and use such information or other material'
Ian


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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
First you didn't get permission to use his video.
US copyright law doesn't require permission to be granted for purposes such as criticism, reporting, teaching, and research. And, since Jeff has already characterized it as a parody, I'll point out that parody use is also protected by law. The video simply points out that what Jeff said was there, actually wasn't. This video documents that fact, without me having to say a word.

Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
Second, you chose music and especially sound effects that demeans the original video. Much in the same way that you could get nearly any video and add fart sounds would do.
OK. That is your opinion. You are entitled to it. If you equate my composition to fart sounds, I can accept that. I think it is a bit harsh. People have different opinions on works of art. That's fine. You don't like mine.

Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
If you had truly wanted to enhance the video and prove your point. Then it seems to me that a descriptive analysis would have been more appropriate for the purpose of helping understand what is going on. Maybe even adding another pointer or something.
I did want to enhance the video to point out what was happening. It wasn't to prove my point. I took the time to carefully look at what was happening in the video, when others did not. I already expressed what I saw many times using words. In the end, Jeff responded with a looney tunes meme. My descriptive analysis had already been done, and it wasn't communicating the necessary information. Had I added more words to the video, or a pointer or something, it would have distracted from the evidence itself. Instead I choice to create a soundscape to direct the viewers attention to what was in the video itself. In this way, you can focus on the information that is in front of your eyes, not words or pointers on a screen.

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Gentlemen,

I was very sad when I saw that a couple of members had left because of 411's strange attitude to the concept of discussion. It grieved me as I couldn't understand why they didn't just hit the ignore button as I had done.
However, now, whichever thread I look at I see lots of redacted 411 marks (which you get when you ignore a poster) followed by lots of anguished postings from normal folk. Unfortunately these postings often include quotes from 411.

It's so boring. So many threads are hijacked in this way. I begin to see why it doesn't seem worth checking in anymore.

I've been in the piano game long enough (too long!) to know that I have a comprehensive understanding of my abilities and how far they go. I've rebuilt many fine pianos for many happy clients over 35 years or so.
I also appreciate that there is always something new to learn and I'm always open to trying anything new as well, if the presentation of it holds up. That said, whilst I did find that I agreed with alot of 411's early posts, there wasn't anything new for me there. And the persistant restatement of his narrow views bored me. When he became unpleasant (not to me, just generally) I set up the ignore button.

But now that no longer works for the reasons I mention above.

So I say, please don't feed the problem. Let's be kind and just ignore it.

Another couple of weeks of this sort of thread and I will just quietly go away...life is just too short to be bludgeoned to intellectual death by the likes of 411.

Nick

Last edited by N W; 01/31/21 01:28 PM.

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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
I took LSD and set my chickens freeeeee.....
No LSD, but there were horses, dogs, ducks, chickens, tigers, seals, owls, crickets, a brontosaurus, and an alien or two. Also, there were many forms of transportation: walking, by horse, ship, car, plane, teleportation, and by spaceship. The composition is more like a lucid dream, with rapid and seemingly unrelated scene changes.

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To summarize what has been established so far, we have able to use math and the field of mechanics to show how much twist in the pin is possible under different torques. In the normal operating range of 80-120in/lbs, tuning pins have a limited amount of twist that is even possible. This twist accounts for approximately 0.2-0.3 cents under normal condition, and perhaps as much as 0.5 cents with pins that are twice as tight. The detuning that people complain about when the pin supposedly "untwists" because it wasn't set correctly is somewhere in the few cent range. The the general issue that requires the setting of the pin, however, is much larger and somewhere in the 5-15 cent range, depending on the piano (tall pins without bushing, this problem gets worse). The math doesn't support the observations that this is a problem with twist. That is one issue. Based on the math, there is clearly something else going on to complicate the matters. Tuning pin twist may be a part of the calculation. But, this needs somehow be established. It needs to be ascertained how much friction is required to hold that twist in place. Either directly or indirectly, this needs to be somehow established.

One way that this is probably possible is to note where the pin can no longer function with a stick-and-slip motion. If the pin isn't able to make a tic sound, and instead only smoothly turns, then there is clearly not enough friction to hold the pin in place. When the total torque is around 60-70 and under, this scenario is usually the result. I'm sure we could use math to extrapolate what amount of torque could then potentially hold a twist. But, I'm still not sure how to establish this with math yet. However, this is how I tell when it is time to tap in a pin or exchange for a longer/larger pin. If the pin only glides, then it is too loose. It has to be able to stick-and-slip.

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Originally Posted by Chernobieff Piano
...

Jeff sure is being a gentlemen about it.

-chris
One short post for clarity. I am not a gentleman about this. I just don't care. It's mind over matter. I don't mind because he doesn't matter. His only "oxygen" is what we give him.


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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I am not a gentleman about this. I just don't care. It's mind over matter. I don't mind because he doesn't matter. His only "oxygen" is what we give him.
Instead of attack the person, it might more productive overall if people in general would attempt to discuss the topic of the thread instead. It is just a suggestion.

As a reminder, the main topic of this thread is that a previously presented video didn't show what people suggested that it might. Upon careful review, the original video shows no evidence of pin twist being stored in the block. In fact, the opposite is true, upon careful inspection when the video is slowed down, we can see that the flex of the head misaligned with the wire attached to the foot. This flex/shift is the same thing that we see in the piano. The tighter the torque readings, the more this flexing occurs. By definition, a twist would keep both wires in the same plane. That is not what we see.

I am happy to make another video about the 175in/lbs to show that the movement of the pointer and the gauge shows flex, and not twist, if it would help people understand the situation better.

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