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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Conical hole? Even if it is conical when it is drilled, it cannot be conical after the pin is driven in unless the pin itself is conical. I think you are grasping at straws.
No. Not at all. Traditionally, tuning pin holes are drill straight and reamed conical. That's just how it was done. Now days most people skip that step. It is mainly to rough up the hole and ensure consistency. Whether or not the holes are reamed conically or not, the tuning pins naturally create this situation over time through tuning. Again, it is the consequence of how the pin flexes [as apposed to twisting] during the tuning process. If you look at the readings in the original post, you can see the conical shape right there in the numbers. Even the act of driving a pin will begin this reaming process. This is basic piano technology.

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Regardless, that is not happening in the demo as I have already explained.
Yeah, you just have to zoom in and slow things down to like 10% to notice. It is very clear. If you ever take another video, I would recommend taking your hand off the hammer after each time you make your turning movement.

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My experience and understanding of tapering holes and tuning pins is that primarily, a tapered hole has a matching tapered pin that is without threads. Such as violins and harpsichords. The rest are Straight holes using straight threaded pins. Only on one rare occasion ( Vose and Sons grand) did i see the use of a threaded tapered pin in a tapered hole.

Using a tapered hole for a straight threaded pin does sound logical.

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@piano411, I think you're misunderstanding the experiment. Not the video that Jeff uploaded here, but the one that Don Mannino described. You keep talking about it as if it were measuring the top of the pin in relation to some external reference. No. The experiment was looking at the top of the pin relative to the bottom of the pin. One wire was affixed to the top of the pin, a second wire was affixed to the bottom of the pin. You extend these wires away from the pin and parallel to each other (toward the player on a grand piano) and then when they're a good distance out, you put a 90 degree bend in the wires so that the ends of the wires almost touch each other. A side-profile picture would be a long/wide rectangle. One short (vertical) side would be the tuning pin, and the other vertical side would have a tiny gap in the middle.

In this setup, you can twist the tuning pin either way, right-handed or left-handed, and you'll see the gap widen dramatically as you twist the pin. But when you stop twisting, the gap will go back to zero as the tuning pin relaxes. Unless there's some "stored" residual twist in the pin from where it's gripped in the pin block. In this case you would see a residual gap with the top wire displaced to the right or left, depending on which way you turned the pin. With no other forces on the pin, the only thing that could cause the small gap would be that the pin has somehow remained twisted.


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Folks, I think we should note something very positive here. We are having a very civil discussion. We are playing the ball, not the man. Sure we are coming to different conclusions after looking at the same evidence, but by considering other points of view, we can refine our own. And it's not like we are delving into outrageous pseudo-science like unfounded unequal temperaments, idiotic impact hammers, nor even pea-brained pure 12ths tunings. wink


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Originally Posted by piano411
...

If you look at the readings in the original post, you can see the conical shape right there in the numbers. Even the act of driving a pin will begin this reaming process. This is basic piano technology.

...

Come on, guy. Looking at numbers doesn't mean there is a conical shape, let alone that such a conical shape will produce the effects you mention.

Originally Posted by piano411
...

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Regardless, that is not happening in the demo as I have already explained.
Yeah, you just have to zoom in and slow things down to like 10% to notice. It is very clear. If you ever take another video, I would recommend taking your hand off the hammer after each time you make your turning movement.


I was old school and just brought my face closer closer to the screen wink But like I said, and is a pertinent part that you unfairly did not quote, such a movement would not change the reading one bit even if it did exist.


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Originally Posted by AWilley
With no other forces on the pin, the only thing that could cause the small gap would be that the pin has somehow remained twisted.
No, unfortunately, that is not the only thing that would cause that gap. If you put the hammer around 9 or 3, you'll get a bend/flex that will register and look like the gap that you describe. Yes, even when the force of the hammer is removed. The foot of the pin (and that wire will stay in place) and the head of the pin (and that wire) will move to the left (9) or the right (3) and produce a gap that looks, based on the wires, like a twist. It also seems like the pin is being "bent," but it's not, it is just a flex and pin set to a different position of the hole.

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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
I was old school and just brought my face closer closer to the screen wink
Yeah, that is not good enough to notice the details. It really needs to be slowed down to like 10% and zoomed in 3-4 times to see the details. Otherwise, for example, it is hard to see when the pointer is at rest (because you have your hand with tension on the pointer the whole time)

Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
But like I said, and is a pertinent part that you unfairly did not quote, such a movement would not change the reading one bit even if it did exist.
Put the hammer at 1-3, flex the pin downwards and then at 9-11, and you'll see the pointer registering a "residual twist."

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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Come on, guy. Looking at numbers doesn't mean there is a conical shape, let alone that such a conical shape will produce the effects you mention.
Try telling that to a mathematician or high school kids studying geometry. Of course the number clearly define the shape of that hole. Whether techs want to admit it or not, piano tuning pin holes are not straight. No matter what you do, they will be tighter at the bottom and looser at the top. Note: pin twist doesn't cause this--the pin flexing and shifting around in that hole does. Those are the facts of piano life.

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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by AWilley
With no other forces on the pin, the only thing that could cause the small gap would be that the pin has somehow remained twisted.
No, unfortunately, that is not the only thing that would cause that gap. If you put the hammer around 9 or 3, you'll get a bend/flex that will register and look like the gap that you describe. Yes, even when the force of the hammer is removed. The foot of the pin (and that wire will stay in place) and the head of the pin (and that wire) will move to the left (9) or the right (3) and produce a gap that looks, based on the wires, like a twist. It also seems like the pin is being "bent," but it's not, it is just a flex and pin set to a different position of the hole.

You really think the experimenter would be silly enough to change the hammer orientation between readings? Such an obvious mistake would be caught immediately by anyone watching.


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So...we KNOW the following:

1) Sometimes it happens

2) Sometimes it doesn't happen

3) What to do about it if it happens

4) How to smile and count our blessings when it doesn't happen

5) That TP holes wear unevenly over time with more towards the coil

6) That (5) affects (1) and (2) but that's not an issue

7) That it's now time for me to go to lunch


What else could there possibly be?

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BTW, piano411 said a 0.3c shift is inaudible - but forgot that if you have more than one string, that's +/-0.3c which is a maximum deviation of 0.6c. At A=440Hz, that's 1 beat every 1.6 seconds on the 4th partial - certainly enough to make the unison noticeably out-of-pure, at least to my ears. I guess some people don't mind some movement in the sounds, but the problem with this untwisting is that it happens over time (maybe a day or so, or longer - that's harder to say) so it's disappointing, to say the least, to have a tuning that doesn't sound as tight after such a short time.

A while back someone posted a link to an aural acuity test and a few people were able to hear differences down to the 0.1c range.

Paul.

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Originally Posted by AWilley
You really think the experimenter would be silly enough to change the hammer orientation between readings? Such an obvious mistake would be caught immediately by anyone watching.
What I think is that it was not a science experiment. It was a purposefully built demo for tuners to see that tuning pins do not simply turn in the hole. There other forces at work.

Clearly, it was not built to differentiate between twist and flex/shift. Some techs here seem to think it doesn't matter what is what, you still have to deal with it. OK. But, again, my point--which I think may have been expressed in a different thread--is that if it can be demonstrated that the pinblock can store a twist (within the normal operating range of tuning pins: 80in/lbs - 120in/lbs), then I would alter my tuning approach to compensate for that possibility. Currently, I do use a slow pull, non-impulse technique to raise the pitch for specific reasons. It would be counter productive to use a slow-pull technique if a tuning pin stores a twist in the hole. So, it does matter to me if the pin stores a twist in the block or not. I do, however, impulse on the way down, so that naturally would compensate anyway, if the tuning pin were to have a stored twist in the block. I always approach my pitch targets from above, so that is more than enough to explain why I don't see any issues with tuning pin untwisting later.

Also, it is not a mistake to use positions like 9 and 3. Every position has something to offer a tuner depending on the situation and what is being done. When you use all the positions, you understand that what happens at 9 and 3, happens in other positions as well, but it just shifts the pin to a different part of the hole.

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Originally Posted by pyropaul
BTW, piano411 said a 0.3c shift is inaudible
No, I didn't say that 0.3 cents was inaudible, I stated that you were wrong to claim that 0.2 cent would produce a detuned unison.

Originally Posted by pyropaul
but forgot that if you have more than one string, that's +/-0.3c which is a maximum deviation of 0.6c.
No, I didn't forget that there are three strings to a trichord, and that produces a deviation of 0.6 cents. Where I learned how to tune, traditionally the right string was tuned first, then the center with a nice projection, then the left to the center. So, yeah, that situation happens all the time.

Originally Posted by pyropaul
At A=440Hz, that's 1 beat every 1.6 seconds on the 4th partial - certainly enough to make the unison noticeably out-of-pure, at least to my ears.
No, that is not exactly how acoustic pianos work. If you use a temperament strip, and limit how the piano resonates, then your statement would have some validity. Or, if we are talking about computer produced music, then sure. But, the tuner's job is to put the energy into the soundboard, where the energy resonates pure. The beats happen when the sound is on the string. A good tuning has a "sucking-in" effect where beats are pulled-in and resonates cleanly. The more pedal you use, the greater this effect.

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Well, glad that's all settled now.

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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by pyropaul
BTW, piano411 said a 0.3c shift is inaudible
No, I didn't say that 0.3 cents was inaudible, I stated that you were wrong to claim that 0.2 cent would produce a detuned unison.

Originally Posted by pyropaul
but forgot that if you have more than one string, that's +/-0.3c which is a maximum deviation of 0.6c.
No, I didn't forget that there are three strings to a trichord, and that produces a deviation of 0.6 cents. Where I learned how to tune, traditionally the right string was tuned first, then the center with a nice projection, then the left to the center. So, yeah, that situation happens all the time.

Originally Posted by pyropaul
At A=440Hz, that's 1 beat every 1.6 seconds on the 4th partial - certainly enough to make the unison noticeably out-of-pure, at least to my ears.
No, that is not exactly how acoustic pianos work. If you use a temperament strip, and limit how the piano resonates, then your statement would have some validity. Or, if we are talking about computer produced music, then sure. But, the tuner's job is to put the energy into the soundboard, where the energy resonates pure. The beats happen when the sound is on the string. A good tuning has a "sucking-in" effect where beats are pulled-in and resonates cleanly. The more pedal you use, the greater this effect.

Wow - a lot of gobbledegook "the beats happen when the sound is on the string". Not sure what else is producing the sounds ,except the string. So we should use lots of pedal to hide your wobbly unisons? As to which string is tuned first, that depends on how you move your mutes ... and some people tune two open strings at the same time ... but a 0.6c deviation across all three is audible, though I will concede that if the strings are mismatched, then you might end up with that much (or more) deviation to produce the best sound. My point was that if your tuning pins end up untwisting, all your carefully installed "projection" will be lost as the deviations change. As pretty much everyone else seems to agree that "setting the pin" involves either removing this twist or leaving it such that it doesn't untwist, I think you're the only outlier who keeps banging on that it doesn't matter (though at least you agree it exists now ...).

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Originally Posted by pyropaul
"the beats happen when the sound is on the string". Not sure what else is producing the sounds ,except the string.
I'm happy to explain the process a little bit further so that maybe you can advance your understanding of how the piano works. The sound comes from the string, and the job of the tuner is to get that energy to go into the board, which then resonated back out through the other strings. Through that process, the tone of the instrument will "sing" and produce that bell-like resonance that pianos are historically known for. That quality doesn't happen if you are primarily hearing a metallic piano sound, which is the source of the beating sound.

Originally Posted by pyropaul
So we should use lots of pedal to hide your wobbly unisons?
Well, yes, pianists usually use the pedal when they play the piano. Some pianists don't like using the pedal because it is too muddy and messy sounding. In fact, that is a problem with how the piano is tuned. Again, I don't have problems with wobbly unisons. If a unison wobbles, then it is out of tune.

Originally Posted by pyropaul
My point was that if your tuning pins end up untwisting, all your carefully installed "projection" will be lost as the deviations change.
I don't have a problem with tuning pins untwisting. I have seen no evidence of that, either directly or indirectly, in the pianos that I tune. And my point was, if the piano is tuned clean, the tuning still has room to move before it sounds wobbly.

Originally Posted by pyropaul
As pretty much everyone else seems to agree that "setting the pin" involves either removing this twist or leaving it such that it doesn't untwist, I think you're the only outlier who keeps banging on that it doesn't matter.
Nope. No one has said that it doesn't matter. And in fact, the math says that what tuners do in the setting the pin process goes far beyond what needs to be done for any perceived twist.

Originally Posted by pyropaul
(though at least you agree it exists now
No. I do not agree that there is any twist in the pins on the piano that I tune. This has not been yet been proven to happen within the normal range of pin torque (80-120in/lbs). Again, this doesn't mean the pins don't need to be set. Setting the pin is not primarily a technique that deals with twist, it deals with the flex of the pin.

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Okay, so there is NO twist in the pin after you've let go and pin does what it wants.

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OK, I am going to mention a few basic observations and then leave this behind. If you want to see if a hole is cylindrical or conical, you measure the diameter at different locations. You would not take torque readings of a cylinder driven to different depths within the hole.

I the video, each demo starts with the pointer at zero. After the pin is turned back and forth a few times and the tuning lever is removed, the pointer is close, but not quite at zero. There is no longer any force from the tuning hammer, yet there is twist in the pin. Obviously this is residual twist that the friction from the pinblock is maintaining.

On to something else.



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When you remove a tuning pin from a piano and inspect the diameter of the hole. You will find that at the top of the block the hole is larger than the bottom. And I mean the bottom of where the pin was. The whole process of boring the hole. Stringing the piano. And tuning all conspire to make the hole take on a tapered size from top to bottom.


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