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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Not necessarily. One data point is not sufficient to draw a conclusion. Indeed, my measurement differs markedly from yours.
Originally Posted by owfrappier
Don't forget that, when computer display 2ms of latency, the real latency is 2X2ms for example, or 5ms -> it's in fact 2X5ms = 10ms. Double. smile 'Measured with RTA micro and Bench.

If, you want. Measured with Smaart / RTA MIC, (Take care of path to avoid double measurement IN/out...)

But, if you want, Mac Mac Mac.

Last edited by owfrappier; 01/19/21 04:30 AM.

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The reported latencies are about the audio interface. We can have both output and input latencies and only the output latency is relevant with virtual instruments.

We should add the MIDI latency, but it is around 1ms (or 2ms if we have both a MIDI/DIN5 and a USB link). MIDI latency is limited because the jitter can’t induce dropouts. With audio, some buffering is needed then higher latency.


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Originally Posted by owfrappier
Don't forget that, when computer display 2ms of latency, the real latency is 2X2ms for example, or 5ms -> it's in fact 2X5ms = 10ms. Double. smile 'Measured with RTA micro and Bench.

Yes, and besides that what the computer reports is only part of the overall latency. All latencies that I reported are actual latencies that I measure by looking at differences in sound output. The latencies in the paper I mentioned (i.e. 10+-3 ms jitter vs 10 ms fixed) are also real latencies measured on dedicated equipment.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
We should add the MIDI latency, but it is around 1ms (or 2ms if we have both a MIDI/DIN5 and a USB link). MIDI latency is limited because the jitter can’t induce dropouts. With audio, some buffering is needed then higher latency.

Frédéric, I wondered about MIDI as well. In principle it can be fast as you say, but do you have any idea about 'input jitter'. Even if there is no buffer, I imagine that on multi-tasking platforms like windows and mac there may be variable delay before things are processed?

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I have already made a program which send a MIDI event to my MIDI IN, and time the return from the MIDI THRU. When trying multiple times, I had 3ms (unfortunately, I didn’t time it with a greater precision).

I guess : 1 ms USB, 1ms MIDI, 1ms USB, but it could also be near 0ms USB, 1 ms MIDI, 1 ms USB, 1ms computation or rounding error.

A USB link is asymmetric : the host can send event at any time, but the device has to wait for the right to use the USB bus. USB1 means 1ms polling period, then I guess an event can wait up to 1ms.

About the OS impact, DPC checker or latency mon measure how much a driver of your system can impact latency. (Normally, other applications have lower priority and don’t impact).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 01/19/21 06:03 AM.

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I forgot. How is this discussion related to this NV10 thread? A bit off topic maybe? 🤓. With love and respect guys. smile.

Last edited by ˆTomLCˆ; 01/19/21 08:06 AM.

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+1

We need to keep things on topic, and I have to say, some o’ y’all tend to digress a bit!

So, how ‘bout them speakers on the NV-10, do they suck? grin

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Originally Posted by Pete14
So, how ‘bout them speakers on the NV-10, do they suck? grin

Yes.

Osho


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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, how ‘bout them speakers on the NV-10, do they suck? grin

Yes.

Osho
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Originally Posted by owfrappier
Originally Posted by pianogabe
Originally Posted by Del Vento
What I wanted to measure is different from what you measured. I wanted to know how much time passes from the keys bottoming on the keybed and the hammers reaching the strings in an acoustic. Obviously this would be different in ppp and fff as your measurement shows, because in the latter the hammers move faster.

It seems Figure 7 has this info for three pianos, which all have different curves. It varies roughly +35 ms for very slow hammer velocity to -5 ms very the fastest velocities. In the latter case the hammer hits the string before the key bottoms out. Figure 6 is also interesting, showing travel time from finger-key to hammer-string contact. This can be 200 milliseconds for ppp, but only ~15 ms for fff.

So CA99 / NV10 /NV5 (Only in Piano sound), we have "Hammer delay" for pianissimo :

(Page 60 of manual)

https://www.kawai.co.uk/service/ca99_79_e.pdf

Very interesting that they have that setting but they have it off by default!

Anyway, let's move this whole conversation about the latency to this other thread which I just created:
http://forum.pianoworld.com//ubbthreads.php/topics/3071473.html

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Originally Posted by Osho
Originally Posted by Pete14
So, how ‘bout them speakers on the NV-10, do they suck? grin

Yes.

No.

Maybe my quality standards are just lower than those of other people. 4.5 years ago I've read about so many people complaining about the speakers of the LX-17, and they sound absolutely fine to me. Same with the NV-10.


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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
Hello everyone...

I just received my NV10.
[Linked Image]

I have a question about software update. Mine has software version 1.0.2, while the version on Kawai’s website 1.0.2m.
[Linked Image]

I am not sure if this means that I need to install the update or if I already have the latest.

If I need to update it, is the 1.0.2m a stable version? Are there any pre-cautions I should know about before updating?

Does the software have anything to do with the region? Since some regions have bluetooth and others do not, does it differ with the software?

Hello everyone,

If you may remember, 5 months ago I decided to take a leap of faith, and buy the Kawai NV10 without trying it or without listening to it. I judged based on the quality of the action of an old RX1, and the sound quality of a CS7.

Prior to that, I had only played on very old German upright pianos in the houses of my extended family and a basic upright Yamaha at school, in addition to some Casio digital pianos. That’s it.

This month, I got the chance to travel to a different country, where I was able to try some really nice pianos and compare them to the NV10.

I want to share my experience with you:

Steinway & Sons model B211: Brand New
- It sounded and felt great, but because of how high my expectations were, it did not amaze me.
- The quality of the NV10 action, to me is better than that Steinway.

Upright Steinway 130 cm: Brand new:

- The upper frequency notes sounded terrific. The best piano sound I have listened to so far.
- The lower frequency notes were much less impressive than the upper frequency.
- The action was way less enjoyable than the NV10.

Bluthner 190 cm: Brand New
- The action was 90% as good as the NV10.
- The sound was more real than the NV10, but the NV10 still sounded nicer (but artificial).

Bluthner One 290 cm Concert Piano: Brand New
- There are no words I can use to describe this experience.
- This is thee best piano experience I have ever imagined, not just experienced myself.
- There is no way I can afford $200k, or have enough space for this piano in my house, but I will always dream about having one maybe one day in the future.
- Upper frequency, lower frequency, action, the sustain pedal, every single aspect about this piano is so amazing.
- I action was slightly better than the NV10, and this is because of how great the NV10’s action is.
- The sound was phenomenal. Any song I play on this piano sounds a feels much better. It makes it very easy and enjoyable for me to connect with the music and the emotions of the piece that I am playing.
- I believe the NV10 with the built in sounds or Pianoteq, gave like 80% of this level of enjoyment with the sound.
- The NV10 also gives me a lot more sounds, silent feature, and all the feature the Digital Piano provides.
- In terms of sound quality, while the NV10 is really good, it is unfair to compare it to this Bluthner. I think the NV10 needs a 5x or more better speaker system to start being comparable to the real Concert Bluthner.

Finally, I tried the Kawai MP11SE:
Note: I was going to buy a VPC 1 before I went for the NV10. Thank God that I didn’t buy it.
- I don’t understand why some reviewers considered this to be far better than most digital pianos.
- In terms of built in piano sounds, it did not impress me at all. However, I played for about 30 minutes only without spending enough time to play with the adjustment tools. But I guess it cannot be compared to the CA79/99.
- In terms of action: Once again, thank God that I did not buy the VPC1, MP11SE, or the CA79/99.
- The action is a good high quality digital piano action. But it is not a lot better than Casio AP470’s action or the NI S88II, or the Roland DPs. It is just nice.
- I liked the finish material of the action keys, it was really good. I may say that I liked it better than the NV10’s finish.
- The pedal felt like a plastic toy compared to the NV10’s pedal.

Bottom line about the MP11 SE:
There are reasons to buy this model, like if you need portability or you need to buy something within this price range. It will provide a certain level of piano playing quality, and it may be enough or exceed the needs of so many people. However, for someone looking for a Grand Piano experience and has more budget, the NV10 is a totally different story. While some people may still fancy an acoustic piano while having the NV10, I think most people can be satisfied with only the NV10 without feeling that they are missing anything significant.

I feel so happy that I bought the NV10.

Last edited by Seif Maher; 01/20/21 06:38 PM.

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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
This month, I got the chance to travel to a different country, where I was able to try some really nice pianos and compare them to the NV10.

I want to share my experience with you

Thank you for sharing this. Really informative even if just qualitative. I have never tried the NV10 (or NV5), nor any of the specific instruments you mentioned, but I have tried similar ones in similar price brackets: most comparable are Yamaha NU1 (which I currently own) and N3, many acoustic of similar quality of yours, various Kawai CA and ES and Privias.

I qualitatively agree with what you said for the different instruments I tried on the same brackets. The only thing I disagree is the "like 80% of this level of enjoyment with the [digital] sound", which I put more like at 30%. I think every acoustic but the worst ones are much better sounding than any digital (or Pianoteq) that I tried -- but you and I discussed this point already and it may depend on the specifics of what I tested or on personal preference.

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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
If you may remember, 5 months ago I decided to take a leap of faith, and buy the Kawai NV10 without trying it or without listening to it. I judged based on the quality of the action of an old RX1, and the sound quality of a CS7.

Steinway & Sons model B211: Brand New
- It sounded and felt great, but because of how high my expectations were, it did not amaze me.
- The quality of the NV10 action, to me is better than that Steinway.

Upright Steinway 130 cm: Brand new:

- The upper frequency notes sounded terrific. The best piano sound I have listened to so far.
- The lower frequency notes were much less impressive than the upper frequency.
- The action was way less enjoyable than the NV10.

Bluthner 190 cm: Brand New
- The action was 90% as good as the NV10.
- The sound was more real than the NV10, but the NV10 still sounded nicer (but artificial).

Bluthner One 290 cm Concert Piano: Brand New
- There are no words I can use to describe this experience.
- This is thee best piano experience I have ever imagined, not just experienced myself.
- There is no way I can afford $200k, or have enough space for this piano in my house, but I will always dream about having one maybe one day in the future.
- Upper frequency, lower frequency, action, the sustain pedal, every single aspect about this piano is so amazing.
- I action was slightly better than the NV10, and this is because of how great the NV10’s action is.
- The sound was phenomenal. Any song I play on this piano sounds a feels much better. It makes it very easy and enjoyable for me to connect with the music and the emotions of the piece that I am playing.
- I believe the NV10 with the built in sounds or Pianoteq, gave like 80% of this level of enjoyment with the sound.
- The NV10 also gives me a lot more sounds, silent feature, and all the feature the Digital Piano provides.
- In terms of sound quality, while the NV10 is really good, it is unfair to compare it to this Bluthner. I think the NV10 needs a 5x or more better speaker system to start being comparable to the real Concert Bluthner.

I feel so happy that I bought the NV10.

Thanks for the comparison! It's definitely hard to be satisfied with an upright action once being accustomed to a grand action, especially one as good as the Novus'. You can tolerate and adapt to an upright action, but a grand action always wins.

The wall of sound of a grand or a decent upright is certainly harder to match -- especially the in-person experience. Making a pristine recording can be a nightmare, however, so a digital wins here. It's an important distinction because even if you had a grand, you might still want to use the Novus for recording anyway.

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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
I want to share my experience with you:
Thanks for sharing your experience. It is very interesting to read!

Originally Posted by Seif Maher
- In terms of sound quality, while the NV10 is really good, it is unfair to compare it to this Bluthner. I think the NV10 needs a 5x or more better speaker system to start being comparable to the real Concert Bluthner.
+1. I think the NV10's speaker system is underwhelming for the price. I don't know whether it is the sample recordings, the amps, the speakers, how the speakers are placed within the box or how the whole system is tuned/optimized - it just feels so far away from a real piano sound. It can get plenty loud (in fact even louder than some baby grand pianos) - but it just doesn't sound like a real grand piano. On the other end, the action is absolutely amazing. And, both the action and the pedals feel just like a real grand piano.

Originally Posted by Seif Maher
Bottom line about the MP11 SE:
There are reasons to buy this model, like if you need portability or you need to buy something within this price range. It will provide a certain level of piano playing quality, and it may be enough or exceed the needs of so many people. However, for someone looking for a Grand Piano experience and has more budget, the NV10 is a totally different story.
Yes, MP11SE's action is nice - in fact I think in the stage piano category - it is the best. But, it is not in the same league as NV10. It is an unfair comparison though. NV10 costs almost 3x-4x than MP11SE.

Originally Posted by Seif Maher
I feel so happy that I bought the NV10.
Me too!! I have enjoyed it thoroughly since day 1. And, still enjoy it just the same.

Osho


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I think it can now be said that so-called hybrid builders (Yamaha/Kawai) need to concentrate all their future efforts on ‘sound’. I hope Yamaha and Kawai are making the right moves, but I doubt it, for their next-generation hybrids; and not only concentrating on using more samples, modeling, watts/speakers, etc., but also investing in new technologies that would once-and-for-all bring the digital piano ‘sound’ on par -in every sense of the word- with the acoustic.

Of course, there’s also the question of rendering their acoustics further obsolete, and at that point (digitals matching the sound quality/propagation of the acoustic) it might not even be worth building any more acoustics (extinction)!

My conspiratorial side thinks that perhaps they are holding off a bit on taking this leap forward too soon for fear of rendering their own acoustics obsolete. Personally, I believe acoustics are already feeling obsolete even if they do ‘sound’ better than digitals. The digital -hybrid- gets you so close for a fraction of the price, and as we all know, it’s all ‘bout them Benjamins (I’m looking at you, Steinway)!

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Originally Posted by Seif Maher
[quote=Seif Maher]Hello everyone...

I feel so happy that I bought the NV10.

Great smile

It's good to be reminded that not all (hopefully, 99%) of NV-10's don't have any problems on delivery. How long did you have to wait for your NV-10? I ordered mine about a month ago, but I don't expect it to arrive in April at the earliest...


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Originally Posted by Falsch
Originally Posted by Seif Maher
[quote=Seif Maher]Hello everyone...

I feel so happy that I bought the NV10.

Great smile

It's good to be reminded that not all (hopefully, 99%) of NV-10's don't have any problems on delivery. How long did you have to wait for your NV-10? I ordered mine about a month ago, but I don't expect it to arrive in April at the earliest...

I feel so lucky and grateful that my NV10 arrived without any issues/faults. I had it shipped from a different country, and I had zero warranty coverage in my area. So many things could have gone wrong, and I am glad it went well.

I have some clicky sound in the 8th octave, however, I was advised on this group that it is an easy fix, I just didn’t take the step of opening it yet.

When I ordered the NV10 it was in stock at the seller’s warehouse, but it took around 25 days for it to arrive using land transit.


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Originally Posted by navindra
This may be compounded by the hard sustain pedal which I thought I'd gotten used to. I pedaled every measure and I surmise hard pedal caused hard recoil. I did experience pedaling fatigue and had to adjust my sitting position. I will have to follow up with Kawai on replacing the spring, finally.

Kawai America have sent me a replacement spring (and back panel screw) at my request and I'm unreasonably excited about it!

[Linked Image]


The spring is smaller than I ever imagined but what is the red cloth for?

Kawai offered and hired a local technician to replace the spring for me, but I requested that they send me the parts directly so that I could attempt the replacement myself first.

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I think the felt is wrapped to dampen any sound from the spring compressing. It's on Kawai acoustic pianos too. When I replaced the spring with one I got from McMaster-Carr, I just took the felt off the original spring and wrapped it around the new one.

Do you mind taking a picture with both springs compared before you install the new one?


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