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Originally Posted by That Guy
But again, I'm a believer in the impact technique!
Why are you a believer in the technique? Is it a body issue? Or you think it produces somehow a superior tuning, or something?

I use an impact technique every time I tune, but not for everything, and certainly not in both directions.

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Impact technique concentrates/multiplies force for short duration. Overcomes static friction suddenly rather than slowly. I use a combination...impact when I need it...smooth when friction is comfortable.

Impact "technique" is not limited to an "impact hammer". One could also call it an "impulse" technique of sorts. Depends on the force needed.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Last edited by P W Grey; 01/16/21 04:52 PM.

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Impact technique concentrates/multiplies force for short duration. Overcomes static friction suddenly rather than slowly. I use a combination...impact when I need it...smooth when friction is comfortable.

Impact "technique" is not limited to an "impact hammer". One could also call it an "impulse" technique of sorts. Depends on the force needed.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

I use a combination as well.


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Originally Posted by P W Grey
Impact technique concentrates/multiplies force for short duration. Overcomes static friction suddenly rather than slowly. I use a combination...impact when I need it...smooth when friction is comfortable.
Just taking this a few steps forward, but inferring from your statements, it seems like maybe you feel the click/tick, or whatever we want to call it, is a byproduct of pin friction and the foot not moving with the head? So, you just bump the hammer to overcome the sticking point? When you impulse the hammer, you get a audible tick sound. Right?

What I am asking is, where do you think the origin of this sound comes from? Do you think like RonTuner that it comes from deep in the pin and a product of the foot releasing, or something else. I think it is something else going on.

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The "clicking" and "sticking" of the wire is coming from friction and wear at the pressure bar and counterbearing surfaces. A little judicious lubrication should virtually eliminate it. I have solved this problem more times than I can count. It is very simple.

However, the alarm bells on this have already been struck. It will be up to Sean to decide who he is going to listen to. I have NEVER (repeat: NEVER) had any issue with careful and proper lubrication of counterbearing points. If enough people with experience have documented and verifiable evidence to the contrary...present it. Sean can decide.

The collateral complication though is that if the piano has loose tuning pins almost to the point of spinning, any friction reduction MAY cause more instability from the standpoint of pins not having enough torque to hold.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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Originally Posted by P W Grey
However, the alarm bells on this have already been struck. It will be up to Sean to decide who he is going to listen to. I have NEVER (repeat: NEVER) had any issue with careful and proper lubrication of counterbearing points. If enough people with experience have documented and verifiable evidence to the contrary...present it. Sean can decide.
Right, there are currently no piano manufactures that use counterbearing lubricates on their pianos. Furthermore, no piano manufacturers recommend the use of lubricates in this manner. And, if you check with them, and the cases have been resolved, they may be willing to explain why lubrication like this, when use on a vibrating string, is a bad idea. However, the short of it is that, no matter how little you use, it will migrate everywhere. It does not stay where you put it. So, it gets everywhere, including on the hammers. There is no "proper" use of lubricants with a vibrating string. Unless you are OK with that lubricant getting into the wood, the felts, the hammers, and the rest of the action. Just because something produces and effect, and it appears to help in some way, doesn't mean that it is the right approach for the piano long terms. Many issues like this will cause more problems down the line, which is why they shouldn't be done.

Originally Posted by P W Grey
The "clicking" and "sticking" of the wire is coming from friction and wear at the pressure bar and counterbearing surfaces.
I was talking about the click that comes from around the tuning area, but it doesn't seem like you have paid attention to that aspect of tuning technique, so, never mind.

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
The "clicking" and "sticking" of the wire is coming from friction and wear at the pressure bar and counterbearing surfaces. A little judicious lubrication should virtually eliminate it. I have solved this problem more times than I can count. It is very simple.

However, the alarm bells on this have already been struck. It will be up to Sean to decide who he is going to listen to. I have NEVER (repeat: NEVER) had any issue with careful and proper lubrication of counterbearing points. If enough people with experience have documented and verifiable evidence to the contrary...present it. Sean can decide.

The collateral complication though is that if the piano has loose tuning pins almost to the point of spinning, any friction reduction MAY cause more instability from the standpoint of pins not having enough torque to hold.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Remember, Peter, if you argue with a fool people will wonder which one is the fool. See, just by giving foolish thoughts attention, you empower the fool and give credence to the foolish thought.


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Uh! That's just how I feel on this Forum some days! wink


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If you look closely, that coil needs to be reset.


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Originally Posted by accordeur

If you look closely, that coil needs to be reset.
And then Mr Tuning Pin will stop clicking!


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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
Originally Posted by accordeur

If you look closely, that coil needs to be reset.
And then Mr Tuning Pin will stop clicking!

Good one! LOL

Last edited by accordeur; 01/16/21 09:09 PM. Reason: Laughing out loud!!!!

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Originally Posted by UnrightTooner
Remember, Peter, if you argue with a fool people will wonder which one is the fool. See, just by giving foolish thoughts attention, you empower the fool and give credence to the foolish thought.
Using lubrication on a part of the piano (a vibrating string) where no manufacture ever uses it is foolish. If you think it causes no harm, then you are free to test out your theory on some Shigeru, Bösendorfer, Fazioli, etc. still under warranty and let me know how that works out for you. If you are positive it causes no harm, and can only help, then do it. Let's see what happens. I willing to bet that it will turn out to be a rather expensive educational expense.

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Originally Posted by accordeur
If you look closely, that coil needs to be reset.
No, it looks perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
And then Mr Tuning Pin will stop clicking!
The tuning pins don't make that sound. That is an important distinction. The sound comes from the last turn of the coil opening and closing, essentially slapping against the tuning pin. It never stop making the sound unless the pins are too loose. The point is not to rid the piano of the ticking/clicking, but to note how much change in pitch happens as a result. The other point is that sound is not a result of the pin twisting, and then a result of the foot releasing.

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I knew it was going to happen. 🤡

However, just to stick my boots deeper into the mire, this problem of clicking/sticking/jumping wire does not occur in a new piano. In fact it does not begin until the piano is well out of the warranty period. It comes about as the wire wears grooves into the counterbearing, wears away plating, oxidizes (rusts) and attaches itself to the felt or cloth counterbearing or muting rests, gradually gets sharper and sharper bends in itself as it goes through the counterbearing, etc etc

The gradual result is that it does not move smoothly any more. It gets hung up on one or more of the aforementioned places and causes difficulties for tuners. Stability issues develop directly as a result of this issue because it becomes increasingly difficult for the tuner to judge if/when the tensions have been properly settled. Thus, what the tuner "thinks" is right, shows up later when things normalize on their own.

Sean will need to decide which fool to listen to. I'm not going to argue about it.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by Chris Leslie
And then Mr Tuning Pin will stop clicking!
The tuning pins don't make that sound. That is an important distinction. The sound comes from the last turn of the coil opening and closing, essentially slapping against the tuning pin. It never stop making the sound unless the pins are too loose. The point is not to rid the piano of the ticking/clicking, but to note how much change in pitch happens as a result. The other point is that sound is not a result of the pin twisting, and then a result of the foot releasing.
Is that something that you can prove to be the case?


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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I knew it was going to happen. 🤡

However, just to stick my boots deeper into the mire, this problem of clicking/sticking/jumping wire does not occur in a new piano. In fact it does not begin until the piano is well out of the warranty period. It comes about as the wire wears grooves into the counterbearing, wears away plating, oxidizes (rusts) and attaches itself to the felt or cloth counterbearing or muting rests, gradually gets sharper and sharper bends in itself as it goes through the counterbearing, etc etc

The gradual result is that it does not move smoothly any more. It gets hung up on one or more of the aforementioned places and causes difficulties for tuners. Stability issues develop directly as a result of this issue because it becomes increasingly difficult for the tuner to judge if/when the tensions have been properly settled. Thus, what the tuner "thinks" is right, shows up later when things normalize on their own.

Sean will need to decide which fool to listen to. I'm not going to argue about it.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

Actually, this is interesting. I am not a good writer and my typing skills are competent but slow.

I actually hear 3 differents ckicks that I can name.

1) Tuning pin in the pinblock. Easily identified if you have restrung pianos. Wood against metal sound, almost a squeak.

2) Capo, upper segment friction. More metallic sounding, mostly on older pianos that have not been tuned. More "tick" than "click"

3) Bridge pin click. You can hear that is it coming from the bottom of the piano, more distant and more felt in the lever, springing sound echoey

There are more clicks I am sure.

4) My Fujan wooden handle in dry conditions actually unglued and started clicking like crazy. It did not take me a whole tuning to figure it out.


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Originally Posted by P W Grey
However, just to stick my boots deeper into the mire, this problem of clicking/sticking/jumping wire does not occur in a new piano. In fact it does not begin until the piano is well out of the warranty period. It comes about as the wire wears grooves into the counterbearing, wears away plating, oxidizes (rusts) and attaches itself to the felt or cloth counterbearing or muting rests, gradually gets sharper and sharper bends in itself as it goes through the counterbearing, etc etc
You told someone to put lubricant on a 4 year old piano! That is well within the warranty period. Are you sure you think you understand the situation correctly? Please take a moment to reconsider the situation and what is being talked about.

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
The "clicking" and "sticking" of the wire is coming from friction and wear at the pressure bar and counterbearing surfaces. A little judicious lubrication should virtually eliminate it. I have solved this problem more times than I can count. It is very simple.

However, the alarm bells on this have already been struck. It will be up to Sean to decide who he is going to listen to. I have NEVER (repeat: NEVER) had any issue with careful and proper lubrication of counterbearing points. If enough people with experience have documented and verifiable evidence to the contrary...present it. Sean can decide.

The collateral complication though is that if the piano has loose tuning pins almost to the point of spinning, any friction reduction MAY cause more instability from the standpoint of pins not having enough torque to hold.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

As with many topics, the idea of lubrication is complicated by past practices and materials. There is a history of techs using oils and silicones on pianos with bad results. The new types of lubricants mentioned (CLP or CBL) are neither oil nor silicones. A key attribute is that the carrier dries and the lubricant does not migrate or travel as the older lubricants which remain in a liquid state. (Yes, if sloppily applied, any liquid will drip and run.)

Ron Koval

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