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#3064135 01/02/21 11:01 AM
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Hello everyone

I am now running my CLP-440 through Pianoteq but the sound is not comparable to the onboard sound and I don't beleive this should be right.

Running it through the DP speakers it doesn't sound good. I have a small pair of M-audio monitors and this improves it but it isn't great. I don't have the space on top of my DP or either side for huge 8 inch monitor speakers.

So what does everyone else use to achieve a decent sound when using this kind of setup? I am really trying to achieve the same sort of volume and punch that the onboad sound produces but with a better quality of piano model.

Very interested to know what others use.

Thanks!

BbMajor #3064144 01/02/21 11:17 AM
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If it's "volume and punch" you are lacking, then the answer is most probably found via changing the velocity curve. There are a number of presets for it; try them all out for size, and pick the best. You can then finetune it afterwards.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Synthogy Ivory II Studio Grands, Production Voices Estate Grand, Garritan CFX Lite, Pianoteq 7.0 (Blüthner, Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
BbMajor #3064153 01/02/21 11:44 AM
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In addition to the above, I suggest you play with Pteq equalizer and, after that, with reverb. I believe the internal speakers are tuned to the internal sounds so you would need to "tune" Pteq to sound better on them.

Last edited by EVC2017; 01/02/21 11:46 AM.

Kawai ES8, Roland RD2000, Yamaha AG06 mixer, Presonus Eris E5 monitors, Sennheiser HD598SR phones.
BbMajor #3064162 01/02/21 11:58 AM
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A high-quality audiophile grade speakers are what makes Pianoteq shine. Needless to say you will also need a good DAC, preamp, amp, good cables, etc. Also, you can't expect for the default presets of Pianoteq to sound good to everybody (or to anybody). They are just a glimpse of what creators thought was a good starting point for creative experimentation. This is like expecting everybody to like a particular Steinway and we all have a friend who would prefer a Yamaha. And even if we manage to somehow find two people who are Yamaha-guys, they will strongly disagree on one and same CFX. So, you should tweak the sound to your liking. The good thing is Pianoteq is infinitely tweakable, so you can shape it any way you like. But only you can do that, ignore any settings posted on the Internet because they represent individual tastes that differ, as we've seen.

Just kidding wink Purhcase a Garritan CFX. You're welcome!


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
BbMajor #3064182 01/02/21 12:26 PM
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Quote
ust kidding wink Purhcase a Garritan CFX. You're welcome!

I knew that was coming smile

Pianoteq does need a good set of speakers to make it shine. I also think Roland's Modeled sounds need a good sound system to get the most out of it.

Plus side of Pianoteq is the historical instruments. They are a lot of fun to play IMHO.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
BbMajor #3064196 01/02/21 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by BbMajor
I am now running my CLP-440 through Pianoteq but the sound is not comparable to the onboard sound and I don't beleive this should be right.

Running it through the DP speakers it doesn't sound good. I have a small pair of M-audio monitors and this improves it but it isn't great. I don't have the space on top of my DP or either side for huge 8 inch monitor speakers.

Does it sound good with quality headphones? On the computer, on the piano? What do you use for audio signal output from the computer?
Maybe you have to boost bass and treble to make it sound better with the piano speakers, they're probably not stellar. Sound sources like a piano are very challenging for speakers, any faults get exposed.

BbMajor #3064197 01/02/21 12:48 PM
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I'm using a wireless gaming headset for Pianoteq and it sounds great enough. I could use some monitors but i'm too lazy to manage the sound output from my PC to Speakers if i want to play.


Kawai: NV5 | MP11SE
Pianoteq 7 Pro | Garritan CFX Full | Vienna Imperial | Keyscape Full | Ravenscroft 275 - Modern U - Model D - AG | Minigrand
BbMajor #3064236 01/02/21 02:13 PM
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The thing about PTeq is it does sound more like a real piano. With slab speakers, more like an upright than a grand. And if you haven't played an acoustic in a while, it'll sound strange.
Also, some notes ring out loud through the speakers, but are OK through headphones.
I've often played PT through the speakers, and shook my head; something didn't seem right. With this weather, could be my ole ears playing up. But after a spell on the 515, I always go back to PTeq.
I'm going to set up some pianos for headphone use, and others for speakers. I still like the native sounds, but they're all too clinical, too perfect. That's digitals for you!
But Pianoteq is so innovative and forgiving (you can backtrack easily, and it is always recording all that you play) it's a must-have for me..


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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BbMajor #3064246 01/02/21 02:28 PM
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To the OP:

If you can hang on for a bit ....

I will be getting my Kawai ES920 next week and at that time I will be directing the Pianoteq sound back through the ES920 speakers and I expect the default Pianoteq sounds to be just fine.

BTW .... If you have an external audio device in your setup you can always listen to the Pianoteq sound with headphones off of the audio interface. That is usually the best sound you can get. You should not have to do a lot of "tweaking". I usually just plug and play with no tweaking.


Don

Kawai MP7SE, Edifier R1850DB Bookshelf speakers, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
BbMajor #3064283 01/02/21 03:47 PM
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Thanks for all the input. So nice and refreshing to find such a helpful forum with people willing to help out.

So today I have tried with headphones through my laptop (surface pro 7) and it was a little better but still nowhere near the kind of room filling immersive sound the stock 440 grand gives me.

I then got to work setting it up on my main pc which is via a Focusrite 6|6 and into a pair of yamaha HS8s. This isn't really a setup I could usually use as it sits adjacent to my piano - but worth it for a test. Again, it was dissapointing. I am not competent enough to know what it is lacking but the sound is just not big enough for what I am after. Still have a lot of tinkering with the curve and eq and effects but I can't see these subtle alterations are going to make a significant difference. I may well be wrong.

When I combined both the stock 440 grand and also the HS8s blasting out the Pianoteq - that was quite enjoyable to play!

BbMajor #3064357 01/02/21 05:53 PM
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Pianoteq is polarizing. It's love or hate.


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Pianoteq is polarizing. It's love or hate.

MacMacMac loves Pianoteq...



Because he loves to complain about it wink


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7SE; Past - Kawai MP7, Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
BbMajor #3064411 01/02/21 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by BbMajor
Hello everyone

I am now running my CLP-440 through Pianoteq but the sound is not comparable to the onboard sound and I don't beleive this should be right.

Running it through the DP speakers it doesn't sound good. I have a small pair of M-audio monitors and this improves it but it isn't great. I don't have the space on top of my DP or either side for huge 8 inch monitor speakers.

So what does everyone else use to achieve a decent sound when using this kind of setup? I am really trying to achieve the same sort of volume and punch that the onboad sound produces but with a better quality of piano model.

Very interested to know what others use.

Thanks!

I have been using VST exclusively for the last year or two. In the last month, I have been using Pianoteq 7 exclusivey. Previously, I was using VSL Concert D and even before that, I was using Garritan CFX.

While, both Garritan CFX and VSL Concert D have absolutely beautiful sound, and are very playable - I find the 'room reverb' in the samples not to my liking for practicing. I will probably use them for a recording - but not for daily practice.

Here are some of the things I had to do to make Pianoteq sound beautiful for my ears while not using headphones. I have basically followed the directions by Phil Best



  • Get good quality 8" monitors speakers. If that's not possible, get good 6" or 7" monitor speakers. Position them property so that twitters are at ear level and are angled towards you to make a perfect triangle with a point little behind your head.
  • Find a player preset that you like the most (for me it is NY Steinway D Player and Bechstein player in that order).
  • Turn off the reverb - or minimize it as much as you can while still liking the sound. I personally just turn it off.
  • If you have the Pianoteq Standard version, play with the position of the microphone so that the microphones are right in front of you. Play with the distance between them and the height - and find the one that sounds best to you. In my case, the mic placements were similar but not identical between NY Steinway D and Bechstein. Also, change the microphone from whatever is the default to perfect-omni or another omni microphone. To my ears, changing the microphone made the biggest difference; as the default choices of microphone in Player preset is not to my liking. Also, try setting each of Level and Delay settings to on and off. Refer to Section 11.3.1. Microphones and microphones techniques at Pianoteq 7 manual
  • Play with EQ3 effect to find what makes it most pleasant. This would vary depending on the pre amp, amp, speakers and most importantly the room you are in. In my case, I have basically turned it off.


Once you find the setting you like, save it as a preset. Such tweaking may not be for everyone - but, IMHO, it is a one time setup cost that is well worth it.

Note that this is a setting I use for regular piano practice. For recording or publishing online, I would probably try a different preset in Pianoteq or go with Garritan CFX or VST Concert D. What sounds pleasing to a passive listener and to an active player are not necessarily the same thing.

Osho

Last edited by Osho; 01/02/21 07:55 PM.

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Kawai Novus NV10 + VST + Genelec 8050B monitors.
Current VST favorites (in the order of preference): Pianoteq 7/VSL Synchron Concert D//Garritan CFX/Embertone Walker D Full

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BbMajor #3064441 01/02/21 10:07 PM
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Looking at the complaints about Pianoteq vs the CLP-440, I have some off-the-wall suggestions. These are things to try, not fully-justified "Do this, and you'll be happy" prescriptions.

(a) One of the "effects" in Pianoteq is a "Compressor". That will (with proper settings) increase the "punch" of quiet sections of music, without overloading on the loud sections. It's worth experimenting with. I've never used it, and can't specify exactly what settings would work best. Pianoteq has some presets for it, they'd be a good place to start.

Using a compressor isn't quite like changing the "velocity curve".

(b) If the CLP-440 has any kind of "loudness compensation" -- a boost in the bass, and treble, for low-volume settings of the Volume knob -- that will make anything it plays sound better.

So turn the CLP-440 volume up to 3/4 or higher, and set up Pianoteq so that it's as loud as that. See if your opinion of the sounds changes.

(c) There have been suggestions to experiment with the EQ settings on Pianoteq. The CLP-440 _may_ have built-in EQ, to compensate for the frequency response of its own loudspeakers:

. . . If it's like my PX-350, that EQ is turned off, when a headphone is
. . . plugged in.

So you'd want to set up matching EQ for Pianoteq.

(d) I've lost track of whether you're using Reverb on the CLP-440, or on Pianoteq. IMHO (note "opinion"), most DP's sound better with a bit of reverb added:

. . . Compare the sounds with reverb off (on both), or with reverb on (on both).


. Charles
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PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
BbMajor #3064444 01/02/21 10:35 PM
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Get the Pro version. It’s worth it.

BbMajor #3064460 01/02/21 11:44 PM
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Some people don't like Pianoteq's reverb. I recently bought Illusion (on sale). I do find it makes quite a difference. A cheaper option might be something from Valhalla (room?)

Also depending on the size of your speakers, they may be too small to get any real bass. I've got an ancient computer speaker 2.1 setup (Creative T3000), and replaced the main speakers with 6 inch models on speaker stands. After Sonarworks correction, it's nice. No huge sub hanging out in my room, either.


U1. VPC-1. Komplete Kontrol 61 1st gen. Pianoteq, Ravenscroft, etc. Two kids on Alfred.
BbMajor #3064462 01/02/21 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BbMajor
I then got to work setting it up on my main pc which is via a Focusrite 6|6 and into a pair of yamaha HS8s.

I would suggest you hook your headphones into the Focusrite audio interface box. That keeps all the other connections out of the sound path which reduces possible interference being added to the sound.


Don

Kawai MP7SE, Edifier R1850DB Bookshelf speakers, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
BbMajor #3064688 01/03/21 02:36 PM
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Thanks again for all the help.

I have now reverted back to putting it through the 440 speakers and tweaking the EQ3 does result in more pleasing sounds. I don't really understand enough (anything) about EQ and so I think I have a lot more playing to do.

I also purcahsed Garritan CFX and currently I am preferring Pianoteq to this. I like how I can just load a midi file or even my most recent things I was playing and then tweak it sat at the computer.

I am going to continue with both and see if I can get somewhere with it - there is light at the end of the tunnel I think!

One question - I only got the Pianoteq stage. Is there much advantage to paying double for the standard?

BbMajor #3064694 01/03/21 02:43 PM
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Well, here is the descriptions from their product page.

You decide ...

Pianoteq 7 Stage is our entry product and a good choice for budget-minded musicians who do not need to modify the sound in great detail. Pianoteq Stage includes the same instruments, sounds and playability as in Pianoteq Standard and PRO. You can upgrade to the Standard or PRO version at any time. Pianoteq Stage comes with two instrument packs of your choice.



Pianoteq 7 Standard offers unique powerful tools to enhance and modify the sound, such as changing the unison width, hammer hardness and string length. You can place up to 5 virtual microphones around the instrument and load external reverb impulse files. You can morph and layer instruments together. You can upgrade to the PRO version at any time. Pianoteq Standard comes with three instrument packs of your choice.


Don

Kawai MP7SE, Edifier R1850DB Bookshelf speakers, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
BbMajor #3064698 01/03/21 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BbMajor
. . .

One question - I only got the Pianoteq stage. Is there much advantage to paying double for the standard?

I've been using Stage. It limits you to preset mic positions, and limits how much you can change the basic piano sound in any preset. You do get adjustable EQ, compression, and reverb. Also mono/stereo sound, and variable dynamic range. I'm happy.

The people with Standard can speak to its advantages.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
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