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Thank you to those people who have replied at least in a mature way. Unfortunately your solutions are to a problem I don't have. The childish members on this forum have twisted my topic completely out of context, and it is now a discussion on something completely different.

I have watched in the past, how certain members put people down because they take it upon themselves to misinterpret and hijack the topic. I have been reluctant to contribute to this forum for fear of being collateral damage to these members, as my topics are usually less mainstream.

I fear I cannot safely contribute to this forum as it appears to be one of the less empathetic and less inclusive forums. I will therefore revert to only reading other members contributions only.

Last edited by Deltajockey; 12/20/20 04:44 PM.
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Delta Jockey, you nailed it... unfortunately.


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Originally Posted by Deltajockey
Thank you to those people who have replied at least in a mature way. Unfortunately your solutions are to a problem I don't have. The childish members on this forum have twisted my topic completely out of context, and it is now a discussion on something completely different.

I have watched in the past, how certain members put people down because they take it upon themselves to misinterpret and hijack the topic. I have been reluctant to contribute to this forum for fear of being collateral damage to these members, as my topics are usually less mainstream.

I fear I cannot safely contribute to this forum as it appears to be one of the less empathetic and less inclusive forums. I will therefore revert to only reading other members contributions only.

Instead of sulking grow up and either engage in the discussion or accept what is said. And I like to be direct with people. It's much better than using 3rd persons and passive phrases.

Sulking if others don't agree with you sounds very immature.


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Originally Posted by Abdol
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
Thank you to those people who have replied at least in a mature way. Unfortunately your solutions are to a problem I don't have. The childish members on this forum have twisted my topic completely out of context, and it is now a discussion on something completely different.

I have watched in the past, how certain members put people down because they take it upon themselves to misinterpret and hijack the topic. I have been reluctant to contribute to this forum for fear of being collateral damage to these members, as my topics are usually less mainstream.

I fear I cannot safely contribute to this forum as it appears to be one of the less empathetic and less inclusive forums. I will therefore revert to only reading other members contributions only.

Instead of sulking grow up and either engage in the discussion or accept what is said. And I like to be direct with people. It's much better than using 3rd persons and passive phrases.

Sulking if others don't agree with you sounds very immature.

There is a difference between 'direct' and 'rude and insulting'. Immature is the route that takes 'rude and insulting'.

Last edited by trooplewis; 12/21/20 03:33 PM.

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Originally Posted by ambrozy
if you are engineer/diyer and interested in reproduction of piano sound, look at "distributed mode loudspeaker" they work like soundboards, they are not a point source like standard speaker and in low frequences behaving like dipoles, exactly like real piano.

I keep wanting to build one of these the size of a large upright soundboard just to see if the radiation pattern helps it sound more like an acoustic piano.

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I've actually wished such a product existed, in a sense realizing, the inevitable compromises. I wouldn't think getting the comprises to your liking would be too difficult, but an off the shelf solution does not exist that is to my particular desires (which change regularly and has kept me in a standstill).

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From reading the OPs post, it's very clear that he never suggested using built-in speakers as the ultimate high-end sound system at home. He merely wished the built-in speakers could be just a little better so he wouldn't have to haul external speakers with him when he's playing out.

Gigging musicians have a whole different set of needs than at-home musicians and often have to make compromises. I'm sure the OP would prefer to take his Kawai grand or his MP11se to gig with instead of the PX-S3000.

I could understand some of the negative remarks had the OP made a statement like built-in speakers were better than external speakers or the action on the PX-S3000 was superior to something else, like a N3X or even MP11se... he didn't.

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Thank you for your recent kind words. Perhaps I was not clear in my explanation...I already have what I consider to be excellent quality sound in some small speakers. Including but not limited to the iLoud, I also have tried the 4 inch Genelecs.
My point was that I can obtain excellent quality for a range of vst instruments, (not just piano), with these external monitors in the more intimate context I am using them in. These monitors are no larger than the built in monitors of most digital keyboards, yet have a more linear response, better designed enclosure to obtain this linear response resulting in less coloration, and they include dedicated DSP processing for a much more transparent sound field in general. (The PX has some degree of DSP processing, but not for the same purpose as the monitors). They also have a greater power amp than at least my PXS3000. That is my current firsthand experience and I'm not looking for a further solution to this....other than the perpetual holy grail smile

It was about taking the more advance monitor technology and including it in the keyboard itself. Most onboard DP speakers, are naturally optimised for the piano samples, so many other vst instruments tend to sound boxy with coloration, as they seem to limit using the keyboard case as the enclosure. I am currently using the PX3000, as I personally am ok with the keybed. I'm not looking for the closest thing to a real piano keybed in a portable unit, that is absurd. I just want a simple weighted action I'm happy with. There are a number of other slab DP's which are a bit larger, I'd be ok with them too, if that was the only solution, but something twice the size, defeats the purpose, as the monitor technology will already fit into something the size of the PX.

On the subject of inbuilt USB audio. Yes, it is usually the case that a dedicated inteface is going to have better specs than the onboard. But for a portable unit with limited monitors, that's not something I would even notice on the road. As I said, the Numa Compact has usb audio, and I find it ok for this purpose.

Also my point about a controller only was all about playing a range of vst's not just piano, which is why having a DP with these features would compel to optimise the onboard "monitors" for piano. That really would be trying to do it all with a compromise.

How often in life, have we been told something is impossible, do we just give up on the advice of others, or do we push ahead anyway. 20 years ago, asking a manufacturer to market a keyboard with no sounds, just controls, to today's current build quality would have seemed commercial suicide.
I have designed and built quite a bit of synth hardware over the decades which didn't yet exist, only to find it becomes commercially viable at a later date.
Given how many dedicated weighted action controllers are on the market now, and how much we use vst's these days, I just thought it was good direction.


I am not upset with Abdol's disagreeing point of view, just the fact that I tried more than once to say that was not what I was on about, but he ridiculed me on an extreme example of which I was not trying to infer :-/

Does anyone else feel when posting, that you almost have to write it in legal document style, including every thought and option, to avoid any ambiguity or omission in what you are am trying to say?

There is more detail I could add to avoid misconception, but it is already long enough.

thanks

Last edited by Deltajockey; 12/21/20 08:21 PM.
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Where did you get this from?
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
Most onboard DP speakers, are naturally optimised for the piano samples ...
I find that most keyboard speakers are not optimum for anything. They generally stink.

This makes sense ...
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
... it is usually the case that a dedicated inteface is going to have better specs than the onboard. But for a portable unit with limited monitors, that's not something I would even notice on the road. As I said, the Numa Compact has usb audio, and I find it ok for this purpose.
I don't know whether a dedicated interface is better than that in the piano, but I agree that the difference is likely to go unnoticed.

As for this ...
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
I am not upset with Abdol's disagreeing point of view, just the fact that I tried more than once to say that was not what I was on about, but he ridiculed me on an extreme example of which I was not trying to infer.
He's a bit of a troll, eh? Put a filter on him. You'll be glad you did.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Where did you get this from?
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
Most onboard DP speakers, are naturally optimised for the piano samples ...
I find that most keyboard speakers are not optimum for anything. They generally stink.


Sorry, simplified use of language again. I have read a couple of manufacturer technical documents in the past talking about this. Take it as anecdotal. And as always, there would be "mostly?"exceptions. Also just because they are optimised for piano, I don't mean they sound good, just less bad relative to non piano patches? The sort of "optimisation" I'm talking about, are: Limiting the frequency response to piano only bandwidth, tailoring frequency response to restore the manufacturer's chosen piano sample's string range frequency curve), for want of a better term, after processing.

This makes sense ...
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
... it is usually the case that a dedicated inteface is going to have better specs than the onboard. But for a portable unit with limited monitors, that's not something I would even notice on the road. As I said, the Numa Compact has usb audio, and I find it ok for this purpose.
I don't know whether a dedicated interface is better than that in the piano, but I agree that the difference is likely to go unnoticed.

Again, not exclusive. My Montage8 USB audio is my reference. I hear a noticeable difference in overall audio "smoothness" through the Montage relative to Kronos, MODX, and just about everything else I have, including a Presonus multichannel interface module.
The Montage audio is well regarded. But the Studiologic NC2X to me, still as good as the direct audio from my MB Pro.

As for this ...
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
I am not upset with Abdol's disagreeing point of view, just the fact that I tried more than once to say that was not what I was on about, but he ridiculed me on an extreme example of which I was not trying to infer.
He's a bit of a troll, eh? Put a filter on him. You'll be glad you did.
Thank you for the filter tip. Didn't think to do this. I tend to live a peaceful life, and don't think about ways to avoid world war 3!

Last edited by Deltajockey; 12/21/20 09:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I find that most keyboard speakers are not optimum for anything. They generally stink.

You're mistaken, they are optimized for low production cost and are real engineering marvels in this regard

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Originally Posted by ambrozy
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I find that most keyboard speakers are not optimum for anything. They generally stink.

You're mistaken, they are optimized for low production cost and are real engineering marvels in this regard


Which is related to my point
. I'd also be happy to buy a DP which put as much engineering into the sound system as the keybed and sound processing.
Probably not for use as a controller, but certainly for a good playing experience..

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Originally Posted by Deltajockey
I'd also be happy to buy a DP which put as much engineering into the sound system as the keybed and sound processing.

Have you told the manufacturers this, or just asked us if we feel the same?

Personally, I'm not travelling anywhere with my keyboard, so I'm perfectly happy to keep my speakers separate. I don't want my setup integrated at all, as that just makes repairs/improvements more expensive.

Originally Posted by Deltajockey
20 years ago, asking a manufacturer to market a keyboard with no sounds, just controls, to today's current build quality would have seemed commercial suicide.

The market is larger today. Nice thing about population growth.

Originally Posted by Deltajockey
Does anyone else feel when posting, that you almost have to write it in legal document style, including every thought and option, to avoid any ambiguity or omission in what you are am trying to say?

You're apparently trying to convince people of... something? So, yeah, you need to be more persuasive than when you write a letter to grandma.

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Foldable, lightweight, all-in-one ... why do they exist?

1- save on costs.

If any company puts premium amps, premium cones, etc, and yet wants to reduce their weights, the price will go so high that only very few customers will buy it.

The majority of DPs have only one amplifier board, the cones are made out of cardboard sheets or similar materials and they are not supposed to be used too often or abused. Monitor speakers have individual amps, must tolerate abuse, and have special acoustic chambers.

The same goes for the internal audio interface. The samples in Yamaha keyboards are CD quality. To get the best possible digital recording on your PC you don't need anything better than a CD-quality capable interface. The preamps are also not intended to be used with any kind of mic.

So if Yamaha e.g. embeds the Steinberg UR22 and a pair of HS8s and still wants to reduce their weight, not only it must redesign this entire hardware, it also needs to come up with some new material and designs to reduce the weight.

So let's do the math:

P-515 is $1500
HS8's 2x370
UR22 is 165

so $2405 USD for the entire setup. This includes the redesign of the DP molds to accommodate these new speakers, a thermal design to dissipate the heat, and new licenses (e.g. UL) for all of the parts (even if they put the exact same hardware as the above). That's why some companies use power bricks or external/modular parts to save costs on certificates and licensing.

At the end of the day, this lightweight gear will cost you so much that it will be out of reach for almost everyone. Just look at how Apple charges a premium for any of its lightweight products. It will be way more worst and more expensive for musical instruments.

Last edited by Abdol; 12/21/20 11:23 PM.

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These drivers/crossover have some of the best performance ever measured: https://www.crutchfield.com/S-3rOsV...T4tHcrdMO6k69uPppt2cbmpPsOhoCqSkQAvD_BwE
Particularly when you see they Klippel performance of those woofers.
I’m not sure how much air volume they require, but something like this in a p121 or an es110 or one of Casio’s offerings could be sweet. That particular set of drivers would likely require too much power for the stock amp... I’ll find something one of these days and tear this slab apart and install them.

I don’t think anyone likes when forum members get pedantic, but every forum I’ve ever been on has here guys who seem to want to prove themselves. The filter idea is perfect. No need for all that in this world. We have enough problems. Just be cool.

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There’s also the Purifi drivers if you are crossover savvy.

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Originally Posted by JayKominek
Originally Posted by Deltajockey
I'd also be happy to buy a DP which put as much engineering into the sound system as the keybed and sound processing.

Have you told the manufacturers this, or just asked us if we feel the same?

It's only a thought bubble from my experience and needs. No point in canvassing industry if users are not interested.

Personally, I'm not travelling anywhere with my keyboard, so I'm perfectly happy to keep my speakers separate. I don't want my setup integrated at all, as that just makes repairs/improvements more expensive.

I guess that means this scenario is of no interest to you :-)

Originally Posted by Deltajockey
20 years ago, asking a manufacturer to market a keyboard with no sounds, just controls, to today's current build quality would have seemed commercial suicide.

The market is larger today. Nice thing about population growth.

Originally Posted by Deltajockey
Does anyone else feel when posting, that you almost have to write it in legal document style, including every thought and option, to avoid any ambiguity or omission in what you are am trying to say?

You're apparently trying to convince people of... something? So, yeah, you need to be more persuasive than when you write a letter to grandma.

Yes it turns it from a recreational activity, into too much like work for me :-(

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Originally Posted by Johnny English
These drivers/crossover have some of the best performance ever measured: https://www.crutchfield.com/S-3rOsV...T4tHcrdMO6k69uPppt2cbmpPsOhoCqSkQAvD_BwE
Particularly when you see they Klippel performance of those woofers.
I’m not sure how much air volume they require, but something like this in a p121 or an es110 or one of Casio’s offerings could be sweet. That particular set of drivers would likely require too much power for the stock amp... I’ll find something one of these days and tear this slab apart and install them.

I don’t think anyone likes when forum members get pedantic, but every forum I’ve ever been on has here guys who seem to want to prove themselves. The filter idea is perfect. No need for all that in this world. We have enough problems. Just be cool.


Yes probably nice speakers, but too much power for what I'm talking about, this would make power supply weight issues. The speaker examples I gave were just that, only examples. There is a lot of amazing technology out there in the wings worth exploring and applying to new applications.
A few years ago we scoffed at small speakers being able to produce large near-field sound in competition with larger bookshelf units, now look where we are.

Trouble is, short visionary people tend to look at the viability of something using only the tools which are in front of them, rather than inventing to solve the problem. There are many things which used to be uneconomical, and with new techniques and materials are very affordable.

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Modern ‘digital’ amps are quite clean and super efficient. Better measuring now than their class A and class AB competitors. Arrays of small drivers could be used to create impressive sound fields. What you are talking about is definitely doable even though it hasn’t been done. There are some interesting small drivers out there like the ones used in the Tribit Bluetooth speakers. Doable, but definitely difficult.

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I remember about 25 years ago, there was this NXT speaker technology. I think TDK were big on developing it, as I had a pair of their planar speakers.

I wonder what happened? You could have a stereophonic planar speaker forming the top panel of the piano. If I remember though they weren't designed for low freq output, so you might have to still have a single sub hidden inside the cabinet somewhere. Just goes to show, the will can turn anything into something economically viable.

I think the technology had it's origins in a problematic accidental vibrating panel in a helicopter! Or was that anti phase aircraft noise cancelling?

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