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the bridge looks great there. Once I had a case in my own practice. So: there was a similar buzzing, but the reason was that sound board came off. We pushed the piano away from the wall, one man was hard pressing a key, the other was pressing the sound board behind the piano. Glue has fall out around the base of the piano floor. After this operation, the rattling disappeared here.

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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
So: there was a similar buzzing, but the reason was that sound board came off. We pushed the piano away from the wall, one man was hard pressing a key, the other was pressing the sound board behind the piano.
LOL, poor Max, he has had to deal with piano situations that I have never even heard of. The soundboard coming off is pretty serious, yet he can patch it up with some cardboard and glue and make it work again. Good for him. Most people would run away.

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I've heard sounds of soundboard that came off..it really is rattling, buzzing, like you said.
In my case, this high pitched sound is really "a sound", almost like a tone that is being produced, not a buzz.
Also, the piano was bought factory refurbished and sold by a professional dealer who also has piano completely checked before selling it, so I'm quite sure all vital parts should be OK.
Upon my inspection I found no issues with the soundboard.
Again, I must say that what piano411 is saying makes a lot of sense..I'll have the entire piano re-tuned next week by one of the best tuners in our region and I hope he will do all the things mentioned here.
However, I don't understand how the issue could spread to other tones..and so fast? Counsidence or perhaps a common root cause in the piano that is triggered by more and more strings?
Piano is in my house with really strady temperature of 21.8C and rel humidity of 48-51% for 14 days now..and it managed not to feel happy.

Thanks again to everybody for this conversation!:)

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Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
So: there was a similar buzzing, but the reason was that sound board came off. We pushed the piano away from the wall, one man was hard pressing a key, the other was pressing the sound board behind the piano.
LOL, poor Max, he has had to deal with piano situations that I have never even heard of. The soundboard coming off is pretty serious, yet he can patch it up with some cardboard and glue and make it work again. Good for him. Most people would run away.
why are you answering so rudely? I just told my own assumption about. Why those dirty hints cardboard and fixes about?

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Originally Posted by Thelycandraven
Hi, here are pictures of the bridge..I've also marked the section of the strings making "issues" ..and F#2 unison causing most issues wahwahwah on the video above in my first post.
I do not see any cracks in the bridge...I've also took a picture if the upper side ot the steings (top of piano). All looks fine to me?

Bridge cap looks fine, so that can be ruled out. The layout is rather bizarre though; it's possible that there's something there causing issues. It looks like they've done it to reduce the chance of the bridge splitting; normally all the bridge pins would be in a straight line, which is a great way to open up a crack! Is there a similar sound with notes on the long bridge (ie. over the break)?

Bechstein (and I'm sure other makers too) laid out the second section of the bridge on some of their pianos, with the strings purposely different lengths to produce a slightly different sound. The layout on your bass bridge is such that the bi-chord strings are different lengths.

As Piano441 says, "resetting" the strings may sort out the issue, and would be an easy job to do; an excellent starting point! smile


Started work at the Blüthner piano re-building workshop in Perivale, UK, in 1989. Self employed since 2000. Learning something new about pianos every day... smile

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A couple of things:

There is no muting felt in the back scale as would be typical. There can be lots of jangly overtones coming off all of the bass strings when they are open like this. Run some muting felt in there, and that will be gone.

The layout of the pins and the notching in the bichords seems to be extreme. Normally, at the bridge end, the pins and notching will reference at about 90 degrees to the speaking length, so that the two strings of the bichord will be an equal length. (If there were an agraffe at the tuning pin end, which is not the case here). The angle seems extreme and makes the speaking lengths unequal, which defeats the purpose of notching in the first place.

I will note that Yamahas typically have very consistent and well layed-out coils by virtue of their stringing methods. I doubt that there would be meaningful improvement by loosening the coils and resetting them. Since the wire is angling up towards the hitching pin bar, that will serve to keep the coils nice and tight. No cigar for you on this one, piano411.


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Hi, all the "below the bridge pins" (where the strings are coiled up) on the entire piano, not just base section are approx. at the same angle and 12 o'clock to each string... and in reallity they are at a MUCH less angle than it seems on the picture, I did not notice how distorted the image looks due to the camera (lense I guess). Lol:)
No, they are definitely not 90° to the bridge but perhaps 105°...on the picture it's funny really how it looks like they are much more angled.
I've pre-owned U3H and from what I can remember it was the same thing with that piano...
I don't know if this was "done" during the 45 years of piano servicing or out of the factory...anyhow, the tuning is very stable, upper pins hold up very well every time I do small corrections of the unisons...BUT I've only ever touched the treble section, NEVER have I touched the basa section to screw something up myself:)

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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
A couple of things:

There is no muting felt in the back scale as would be typical. There can be lots of jangly overtones coming off all of the bass strings when they are open like this. Run some muting felt in there, and that will be gone.

The layout of the pins and the notching in the bichords seems to be extreme. Normally, at the bridge end, the pins and notching will reference at about 90 degrees to the speaking length, so that the two strings of the bichord will be an equal length. (If there were an agraffe at the tuning pin end, which is not the case here). The angle seems extreme and makes the speaking lengths unequal, which defeats the purpose of notching in the first place.
I agree with you,WilliamTruitt.
It's very important your see there. There is no classic an agraffe, which is the reason for additional sound resonances. Coppy bar plank countersunk in iron plate may have burrs near string here. As a consequence, this creats metal overtones of .
Make 2 strips of 1.5mm thick wool, 45 cm and place between the strings (at the top of the bar and at the bottom of the bass bridge).
regards,

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Piano411, I'm curious. What is the mechanism by which the tightening of a coil causes the pitch to be more stable. Or, conversely, what is the mechanism by which a coil that is not as tight causes instability?


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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
Originally Posted by piano411
Originally Posted by Maximillyan
So: there was a similar buzzing, but the reason was that sound board came off. We pushed the piano away from the wall, one man was hard pressing a key, the other was pressing the sound board behind the piano.
LOL, poor Max, he has had to deal with piano situations that I have never even heard of. The soundboard coming off is pretty serious, yet he can patch it up with some cardboard and glue and make it work again. Good for him. Most people would run away.
why are you answering so rudely? I just told my own assumption about. Why those dirty hints cardboard and fixes about?

Max,

The reason he answered so rudely is because he is rude, and he believes he is the ALPHA dog and we are all hopeless, incompetent fakers. We will never come up to his echelon of practice. As long as he is here we will have to accept this.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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Originally Posted by Maximillyan
why are you answering so rudely? I just told my own assumption about. Why those dirty hints cardboard and fixes about?
Max, you lost something in your translation. If you remember correctly, I have supported your use of cardboard. Right? That is not a dirty hint. In the past, I pointed out that you are confronted with crazy challenges, without access to supplies, and you have to deal with what you are confronted with. I've never had to put cardboard into a piano, and I never had to glue a soundboard back in a customers home. That is pretty crazy piano work to be confronted with. In the past, you have described even worse situation to have to deal with.

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I thought every possible situation was taught at the academies of piano technology that one has to attend to get federal accreditation.


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I'm sorry to say that i doubt translation has anything to do with it. An examination of many other 411 posts shows he is rude and condescending to others as well. Particularly anyone who questions any of his "practices" or qualifications.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
we are all hopeless, incompetent fakers. We will never come up to his echelon of practice. As long as he is here we will have to accept this.
No. I don't think you are fakers. I think you have a limited way of thinking about things because your sphere of influence is so limited. You should study and train in other parts of the world to know what other people do, and how they describe what they hear and feel in the piano. If you spent considerable time and money earning an education, you might better understand why it is uncomfortable for others to see you use the term "doctor" as a marketing gimmick. Maybe you think it is cute and easy for potential new clients to remember. OK. Fine. But, some of us worked really had to earn our titles. They weren't simply made up to make a quick buck by feigning our educational experiences.

Originally Posted by P W Grey
The reason he answered so rudely is because he is rude, and he believes he is the ALPHA dog
No, not at all, I don't think in terms of comparing myself or other humans to dogs.That's a little silly. We are educated humans, we don't behave like animals. But, I will give you an example of being rude...

Originally Posted by P W Grey
Notice that the classic bait and switch reversal of responsibility has already occurred. The video will NEVER happen.
I already made pictures for you to better understand what I as talking about with cordovan bushings. You couldn't comprehend the words, so I took pictures, just for you. Did it help? No. Did you say thank you? No. You wanted it done it yet another way so that I could prove to you that something works. Peter, no offense, but that is why you don't learn. I try everything for myself. Including Max's cardboard. I did it, so that I know what it feels like and how it performs. I try everything on my own, so that I have first hand experience. I don't wait for others to spoon feed me knowledge. The reason I am able to confront people, is not because of I have a stronger personality, or a real education, it is because I have actual experience that I can talk about. In order to get something right, you get it wrong hundreds or maybe thousands of times. I pay attention to what went wrong and adjust. This is how you develop confidence in what you are doing. You know what not to do and why, through first-hand experience.

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Originally Posted by BDB
I thought every possible situation was taught at the academies of piano technology that one has to attend to get federal accreditation.
Gluing in a soundboard in a customer's home, without even taking the piano apart? No, that is not taught, nor tested for. You know what also wasn't tested for? Using crazy glue to saturate a pinblock. It doesn't mean it can't be done. Many things can be done.

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Originally Posted by P W Grey
I'm sorry to say that i doubt translation has anything to do with it. An examination of many other 411 posts shows he is rude and condescending to others as well.
Peter, I will answer for myself. I know what I intend to do, and what I intend to say. My intent was not to discourage Max. I said "good for him" then, and I am saying "good for him" now. The reason why he is a bit sensitive about the cardboard issue is because how you all responded to him using the approach. I tried to read his thread, but I gave up because of all of the nonsense that was thrown at him over it. You all should have just tried it for yourself first, before you went on the attack. How many of you actually tried it? How many of you really put it to the test? Just because that approach didn't fit into your bubble of experience, you guys attacked him over it. That was rude, that was condescending.

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Originally Posted by bobrunyan
Piano411, I'm curious. What is the mechanism by which the tightening of a coil causes the pitch to be more stable. Or, conversely, what is the mechanism by which a coil that is not as tight causes instability?
One issue is the tension of the turns going around the pin to the leg of the becket bend. If the coil isn't tight, or the turns are not equally tensioned going around to the leg, then this slack gives way over time and the pitch drops. Getting the tension "tight" all the way around to the leg is difficult. This requires hammer technique. But, when the string is at tension, the majority of the tension is stuck at the first turn, or so. Getting the tension to move up to the leg, with the wire at full tension, means you have to fight the bearing tension of the string around the first turn. This is difficult, if not entirely impossible without damaging something else. If you back the tension off, you can tighten up the coil, higher in the turns, without having to fight the tension of the string so much.

The other issue is the bottom turn of the coil needs to press firmly against the front segment of the string. Otherwise, you have an "open" coil. They need to not only make contact, but these two parts of the wire need to push against each other. Also, the angle of the coil is important here. Again, this setup give the tuner the ability to use hammer technique that isn't otherwise available. When the coil is pushing against the front segment, and the tuner pushes the pin forward, the pitch doesn't just drop. There is a spring tension to work with. The front segment pushes the coil, and in turn the pin, back towards a neutral position. When the tuning pin is sprung against the front segment, the system behaves differently. But, you also have much better control when tuning. So, there is a couple of things going on there.

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I rest my case.

Peter Grey Piano Doctor


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So for all your boasting about your credentials, you have not learned to do anything in the most advantageous manner for the vast majority of piano owners, those who have limited resources of talent and/or money. People like that are detrimental to the piano industry.


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Originally Posted by piano411
I try everything for myself. Including Max's cardboard. I did it, so that I know what it feels like and how it performs.
piano411,forgive me I was say a little harshness in my previous message (# 3058625). I don't speak English well. I am only trying to understand the cause and effect of the phenomenon for my own understanding of the subject of "piano" in order to have the correct own practices after. It seemed to me that you slightly to ironization off the cardboard shim about there. But I see now that I was wrong, sorry for that my disrespect for you, piano411.
If you have practice test with cardboard shim, then we would like to hear your professional critically opinion about there.
regards,

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