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Johan B Offline OP
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Hi there,

This morning started the day with Johann Kuhnau Partie IV and V(suites). Real baroque music of the cantor of the Thomasskirche / Thomasschule who was succeeded by Johann Seb Bach in 1722. Kuhnau lived from 1660-1722.

Here are the scores:
Page 56 and 60 of this pdf

Nice, this type of music is loved by many.....

Have a nice day, best regards,
Johan B

Last edited by Johan B; 12/03/20 05:43 AM.

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It’s great to have you back 😊 best wishes!


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Scarlatti Cat Fugue
Faure Barcarolle #1
Chopin Mazurka 59/2
Chopin Nocturne 62/1
Florence Price Nimble Feet - getting ready to record for the Female Composers recital

Question of the day: How do you play Scarlatti with no pedal?



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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Fidel
Beethoven op 54 2nd mvt
Beethoven op 57 1st & 2nd mvt
Beethoven op 79 all 3 mvts
Scarlatti k.141
Scarlatti k.180

I won't be learning any holiday music (no time to do so). I've been fighting k141 seemingly forever but the rest have been added over the last several weeks. What I'm trying to do is play with no pedal save for 2 or 3 passages where the urtext says to use it. It's actually extremely difficult to forego the pedal esp for someone with small hands.
Re the pedal, are you talking about the Scarlatti or Beethoven? My guess is the Beethoven since an urtext version of Scarlatti wouldn't have pedal. OTOH I think Beethoven only indicated in very special places where a pianist might nor normally use pedal or might normally use it in a different way. So I'm not sure your idea of not using pedal except where urtext indicates it makes sense.

Your guess is correct. Scarlatti is never pedaled and Beethoven indicates it in a few very special places in dramatic ways. But it is special & dramatic because he just about never uses it. Also my teacher wants me to stop pedaling Beethoven.


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Originally Posted by Fidel
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Fidel
Beethoven op 54 2nd mvt
Beethoven op 57 1st & 2nd mvt
Beethoven op 79 all 3 mvts
Scarlatti k.141
Scarlatti k.180

I won't be learning any holiday music (no time to do so). I've been fighting k141 seemingly forever but the rest have been added over the last several weeks. What I'm trying to do is play with no pedal save for 2 or 3 passages where the urtext says to use it. It's actually extremely difficult to forego the pedal esp for someone with small hands.
Re the pedal, are you talking about the Scarlatti or Beethoven? My guess is the Beethoven since an urtext version of Scarlatti wouldn't have pedal. OTOH I think Beethoven only indicated in very special places where a pianist might nor normally use pedal or might normally use it in a different way. So I'm not sure your idea of not using pedal except where urtext indicates it makes sense.

Your guess is correct. Scarlatti is never pedaled and Beethoven indicates it in a few very special places in dramatic ways. But it is special & dramatic because he just about never uses it. Also my teacher wants me to stop pedaling Beethoven.
That would seem like an extreme outlier recommendation. I have never heard of a major pianist taking that approach for Beethoven. I think the correct idea is that Beethoven only indicated pedal where he thought how to pedal wasn't obvious or when he wanted a special effect. Definitely not because he wanted the pianist to pedal only where he marked it. And my guess is that many/most pro pianists use touches of pedal in Scarlatti.

Why does your teacher want you to not use pedal in Beethoven?

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Originally Posted by Fidel
Your guess is correct. Scarlatti is never pedaled and Beethoven indicates it in a few very special places in dramatic ways. But it is special & dramatic because he just about never uses it. Also my teacher wants me to stop pedalling Beethoven.

Scarlatti didn't pedal because his "piano" music is mostly written for the harpsichord. I doubt he ever came across a piano with a sustain pedal.

Beethoven indicated pedalling like he indicated fingering. Not using pedal because it's not indicated is a bit like not using your fingers because fingerings aren't indicated.

Last edited by johnstaf; 12/03/20 05:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fidel
Your guess is correct. Scarlatti is never pedaled and Beethoven indicates it in a few very special places in dramatic ways. But it is special & dramatic because he just about never uses it. Also my teacher wants me to stop pedaling Beethoven.

All observers that attended live performances, commented that composers like Beethoven, Clementi, Cramer, Dussek, Field performed with considerably more pedal than notated. Czerny wrote that Beethoven "used a lot of pedal, much more than indicated in his works". And specifically regarding the first mouvement of opus 57 he wrote "in all concording, energetic passages, the cooperation of the pedal must not be neglected". In opus 57, all the pianists I have listened to use the pedal, some quite often.

And it is clear that most pedal indications of Beethoven are in places where he is looking for a very particular effect. For example bar 441 to 447 in the rondo of sonata 53.

In Scarlatti, the usage of the pedal is perfectly valid to avoid a dry sound, as long as it is used wisely, without blurring the lines. Most pianists use some degree of pedal.

I have no idea why your teacher does not like the pedal. Now the pedal on the type of piano that Beethoven used does not produce the same effect as on modern piano, but with that in mind, it is a question of wise balance. But not using the pedal at all does not seem justified.

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Johan B Offline OP
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Hi there,

Today Georg Jiri Antonin Benda 1722-1795, Tsjechian composerr, wrote some fine Sonatas in classical style. Look for example page 138 and 146 of the pdf.....

Here they are:
16 Sonatas Georg Benda

Have a nice day......

KInd regards,
Johan b


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Current sight reading practice - Mendelssohn's Songs Without Words. Very slowly...

Sam

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Worked on: Have yourself a merry little Christmas/Für Elise/The little Shepherd.

Played through: Chopin prelude op. 28,6/Brahms waltz op. 39,15/Bach prelude BWV 846/Bach prelude BWV999.


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Today, or rather yesterday, because it's 1 AM here, I've recorded two pieces for an online "contest" with Christmas themed pieces. I only found out about it three weeks ago, so I had to do something I've never done before: learn two pieces in three weeks. Well, one of them is really short (Angel of Joy by David Lanz), but the other one (a Silent Night arrangement) is over 4 minutes long, which is also the longest piece I've ever learned. Also both pieces need to be in the same video, which complicated things, because I've never played two pieces in the same video before. More than that, I had to kinda dress up, with pants and shirt, which was again a first for me, because I use to play almost naked lol. And even more troublesome, I had to play through the speakers, which I almost never do, except for my Skype lessons, because they sound like crap compared to the headphones. I think it's safe to say I had a rough day laugh

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Crap day? Nope, sounds great😊 you tried all kinds of new things —-and you did them

Good luck in the competition


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
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No ragtime today so far, which is unusual. Played a couple of my own old pieces, then played some Chopin and Liszt, which I don't like much any more and keep wanting to change and put extra stuff in, but I use them as finger exercises. Then on to the serious business of idea generation, today involving rapid left hand double notes, which need work.


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"Very Early' - Bill Evans
'Time Remembered" - Bill Evans
"'Zat You, Santa Claus?" -Jack Fox
"Rhapsody on a theme of Paganini 18th Variation"- Rachmaninoff
Assorted Christmas Carols


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Johan B Offline OP
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Ho there,

Today was a day to skip....bad day some 20 days after the operation in the hospital; goes up and down........So, only played some christmassongs and carols....maybe tomorrow is a better day.....

Kind regards,
Johan B


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Chopin Nocturne in F minor
Adagio from Beethoven’s Pathetique
Granados Epilogue
Some Holiday music for fun.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Fidel
... What I'm trying to do is play with no pedal save for 2 or 3 passages where the urtext says to use it. Also my teacher wants me to stop pedaling Beethoven.
That would seem like an extreme outlier recommendation. I have never heard of a major pianist taking that approach for Beethoven. I think the correct idea is that Beethoven only indicated pedal where he thought how to pedal wasn't obvious or when he wanted a special effect. Definitely not because he wanted the pianist to pedal only where he marked it. And my guess is that many/most pro pianists use touches of pedal in Scarlatti.

Why does your teacher want you to not use pedal in Beethoven?

My teacher and I disagree on pedaling in general and on Beethoven in particular. She says my hands can do more than what I'm allowing them to do. My personal piano history has me pedaling to deal with my small hands. I shift my hands in scales & arpeggios rather than crossing over/under. It really is time for me to figure out how to move without the pedal.

I've been at it for a month and I'm starting to get better at the cross over/under without doing the chicken-wing and without contorting my hands. I don't know where exactly this will end up but I am happy with how much I can manage without the pedal. I probably will add some pedal after this phase is over. Unexpectedly, I like the sound of a dry piano in Beethoven & earlier.


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Originally Posted by Fidel
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Fidel
... What I'm trying to do is play with no pedal save for 2 or 3 passages where the urtext says to use it. Also my teacher wants me to stop pedaling Beethoven.
That would seem like an extreme outlier recommendation. I have never heard of a major pianist taking that approach for Beethoven. I think the correct idea is that Beethoven only indicated pedal where he thought how to pedal wasn't obvious or when he wanted a special effect. Definitely not because he wanted the pianist to pedal only where he marked it. And my guess is that many/most pro pianists use touches of pedal in Scarlatti.

Why does your teacher want you to not use pedal in Beethoven?

My teacher and I disagree on pedaling in general and on Beethoven in particular. She says my hands can do more than what I'm allowing them to do. My personal piano history has me pedaling to deal with my small hands. I shift my hands in scales & arpeggios rather than crossing over/under. It really is time for me to figure out how to move without the pedal.

I've been at it for a month and I'm starting to get better at the cross over/under without doing the chicken-wing and without contorting my hands. I don't know where exactly this will end up but I am happy with how much I can manage without the pedal. I probably will add some pedal after this phase is over. Unexpectedly, I like the sound of a dry piano in Beethoven & earlier.
You seem to have a major misconception about the pedal. It's not just used to connect the sound(play legato)although it's certainly used for that purpose sometimes. It's also used to change the quality of the sound...to give a richer, less dry sound. The overwhelming percentage of all good pianists use the pedal quite a bit in Beethoven to either play legato or change the sound and they're not using it to cover up technical deficiencies.

It's possible that you may have been using the pedal in some places unnecessarily to cover up technical problems(like legato scales) with your small hands that can be improved. But that would not mean it should only be used where Beethoven marked it in the score.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Fidel
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Fidel
... What I'm trying to do is play with no pedal save for 2 or 3 passages where the urtext says to use it. Also my teacher wants me to stop pedaling Beethoven.
That would seem like an extreme outlier recommendation. I have never heard of a major pianist taking that approach for Beethoven. I think the correct idea is that Beethoven only indicated pedal where he thought how to pedal wasn't obvious or when he wanted a special effect. Definitely not because he wanted the pianist to pedal only where he marked it. And my guess is that many/most pro pianists use touches of pedal in Scarlatti.

Why does your teacher want you to not use pedal in Beethoven?

My teacher and I disagree on pedaling in general and on Beethoven in particular. She says my hands can do more than what I'm allowing them to do. My personal piano history has me pedaling to deal with my small hands. I shift my hands in scales & arpeggios rather than crossing over/under. It really is time for me to figure out how to move without the pedal.

I've been at it for a month and I'm starting to get better at the cross over/under without doing the chicken-wing and without contorting my hands. I don't know where exactly this will end up but I am happy with how much I can manage without the pedal. I probably will add some pedal after this phase is over. Unexpectedly, I like the sound of a dry piano in Beethoven & earlier.
You seem to have a major misconception about the pedal. It's not just used to connect the sound(play legato)although it's certainly used for that purpose sometimes. It's also used to change the quality of the sound...to give a richer, less dry sound. The overwhelming percentage of all good pianists use the pedal quite a bit in Beethoven to either play legato or change the sound and they're not using it to cover up technical deficiencies.

It's possible that you may have been using the pedal in some places unnecessarily to cover up technical problems(like legato scales) with your small hands that can be improved. But that would not mean it should only be used where Beethoven marked it in the score.


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