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I am not a pianist, but I do play a trumpet so I have some idea about music. However, my young children (5, and 6.5 years old) are, and both play really well for their ages (my daughter has placed in an international competition playing Sonatina by Clementi and Comptine d'une autre etee by Y.Tiersen). We have a lovely Feurich upright piano at home, which we love. However, we will soon be moving, and it will be about a year before we are settled with our acoustic piano in place. So we need to find a somewhat portable digital solution for the next year. We expect to be moving about 4-5 times in the next year as we try out various locations before we decide where we want to settle, so the solution needs to be more portable than a digital upright piano, as it needs to fit in our van. Both kids will likely join a conservatory program in about a years time, and they will have lessons with local teachers as well as online with their current (fantastic) teacher that we've had (in person) for the last year.
Essentially, we've been considering the Yamaha p515, Roland FP-90, Kawai VPC1, Kawai ES920, and Kawai MP11se.
The most important things for us are: 1) How well the action translates to an acoustic piano, 2) Not too complicated to set up so that the kids play more often.
The Yamaha p515 (which we've tried in person) had a really heavy (and noisy) action compared to our Feurich, any my daughter really didn't like it.
The Kawai VPC1 seems ideal if only there were speakers and just one piano sound. I worry that the complexity of turning the computer on, opening the software, and then only getting to play. I think this may be a barrier to the many times a day that my kids will just play on their own.
The Roland FP-90 (which we've tried) has an action weight much closer to the Feurich, but somehow felt like a keyboard more than a piano. Maybe it's just my lack of experience here, so this is still in the running.
We haven't got anywhere reasonably close by at the moment where we can try out any Kawai instruments, so we'll have to order online fairly blind. That said, the ES920 looks good as an all-included solution, but I've heard that the action isn't nearly as good as the VPC1 or the MP11se. The MP11se seems ideal, if not for the myriad distracting buttons and lights and the lack of speakers (but those are less of an issue to sort out).
I haven't discussed price because anything within this range is okay for us, but we'd like to keep the total price under €2500. So if you have any other suggestions that I've missed, I'm completely open to hearing them.
I know it's a lot of money to spend on an instrument for kids, but I'd rather drop silly money on something for their education and drink less beer for a decade. So, what would you actual piano players do if you had €2500 to spend on a digital but portable piano setup for your kids? Roland FP-90, Kawai VPC1, Kawai ES920, Kawai MP11se, or something better?
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As a parent, I would favor the ES920 because you can purchase a furniture stand for it and it has internal speakers so it appears to be a piano and not a conglomeration of speakers, computers with software, wires, and a stand to put the keybed on.
I have been a Kawai user for a few years now .... ES7, ES8, MP11SE, and I have the ES920 on order.
I have no doubt the key action on the ES920 will be excellent.
Will it be similar to an acoustic piano ?
Maybe not. I really cannot judge that.
But ... it will be an excellent action. That I am sure of.
Others say the VPC1 is close to acoustic.
Some say the MP11SE is also close to an acoustic.
I found the MP11SE key action to be great but perhaps a bit "slow" for trills.
Note: I cannot say for sure about that .... it is just a sense I had.
You may be wondering why I sold the MP11SE.
Weight and lack of internal speakers.
So, anyway .... my vote is for the Kawai ES920.
Don
Kawai MP7SE, On Stage KS7350 keyboard stand, KRK Classic 5 powered monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones
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I would involve your piano teacher(s) in the testing and buying decision. Action might be no 1, but when it comes to sound there are other considerations of access to timbre or tonal range, that is just as or more important than the actual piano sounds themselves.
I can't say about the ES920 already suggested, but would not personally recommend a DP I had myself never played.
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Within your budget you can get vpc1 plus a cheap laptop dedicated to the piano. You can place it next to the piano, with a laptop stand. I do so, and it takes me 20 seconds or less when i turn it on. A cheap laptop will run pianoteq with no problems and give you good enough sound through a pair of cheap speakers
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. . Essentially, we've been considering the Yamaha p515, Roland FP-90, Kawai VPC1, Kawai ES920, and Kawai MP11se. The VPC1 -- needing a computer, and loudspeakers, and a VST -- is the one I'd strike off the list. Too complicated for a nomad, or a child. The MP11se also needs speakers, and (at 75 pounds) is at the upper limit of "portable" weight. (It may also have the most acoustic-piano-like action of the bunch.) The remaining three have their champions and detractors, here. IMHO, none of them would be a mistake. And the MP11se is at least as good (once you've carried it upstairs and attached its speakers). It would be great if the kids could try them out, and pick a favorite.
. Charles --------------------------- PX-350 / Roland Gaia / Pianoteq
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Since your kids know how to play, I'd have them try out the next tier down from the models you've looked at. It is not always the case that people prefer the most expensive action, especially children with smaller hands and fingers. So I'd try the Kawai ES110, Yamaha P125, Roland FP30. You don't mention casio, I'd try those out if they're available in your country, probably a PX-S1000 and 3000. Of those models I've played the ES110 a lot and really like it, I find the P125 a bit heavier and not as much to my liking. I've test drove the FP30 and liked it but did not play it enough to have a really strong opinion. I've never had a chance to play the casios.
Yamaha P90, Kawai GL-10
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MP11se, Best action, Pop some speakers on there. you're good to go.
ES920 is a ripoff at its price.
I'm not saying mp11se is well priced, but it's not a ripoff.
CA79 is also a good place, but MP11se is more fun down the road, and it doesn't simply overlap with an acoustic piano if you're going to get one installed eventually. CA79 would just be dead weight at that point. While Mp11se expands what you can do musically.
Last edited by jeffcat; 12/02/20 03:39 PM.
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I think the FP-90 has the best action of any of the pianos being considered.
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I think you should test the ES920 and the MP11SE (its weight, hehe). The ES920 action will probably feel lighter than the FP90, and it will look more plasticky. The ES8 was nicely built, but 5-6kg heavier. The sound was nicer than the FP90 to me, but I prefer the FP90 keys.
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A lot of voices already chimed in here, but here are my thoughts as a father of a small child (5-7), who went through the same journey.
All the choices you listed are comparable, in action and sound quality. None of these are going to hamper your kids' learning any more than the others.
I do agree that it's better to select something that is sit-down-and-play; if your focus is on the kids, it's a bit of a distraction to deal with turning on a DP (and the MP11 has a momentary switch so you can't just leave it in the "on" position and use a power strip), powered monitors, changing individual volumes, dealing with all the separate cables, etc. Plus, a lot of the stage and external speaker components (like the MP11, VPC-1) are super heavy, need a sturdy stand, and if you're like me, need to be child-proofed and prevented from being tipped over).
IMHO, get something simple, all-in-one and easy to use (the ES920, FP-90 and P-515 are good bets in the portable/stage dept.). When your kids are ready for advanced repertoire, their piano instructors will tell you to get an acoustic anyways, so you likely won't need to upgrade to the "next tier" of DPs.
Bosendorfer D214VC ENPro Past: Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11, Kawai NV10
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Given the age of your kids, having a fluid, lighter action keybed would be my vote. I've got the Kawai ES110, and I can fly on it, it's very expressive and capable of the softest to the lightest. You also tailor the action with the settings: velocity curve for lighter (least amount of pressure required) normal, and heavy. These settings make a considerable difference in how it feels. Esp with the 5 year old, you could make a User voice that has the light touch, and the older one using the normal or heavy touch.
I would strongly dis-recommend getting the under $1000 boards. Many do not have displays and lack other basic features, you have to set parameters by a series of button presses and keyboard notes (it sucks).
Without having tried it, from what I can tell the ES920 would be a fantastic board. It does have a display so you can create User voices that are customized to each of the girls. It does have a quality 40 watt speaker system. It does use the highly regarded action that the ES8 did. It does have an aux in (for bringing in sound from your smartphone), as well as BT audio (you can stream it from your smartphone). And it only weighs 38 pounds, which is unprecedented for a keyboard with excellent action and speakers. It does use a plastic body to cut down on the weight, but is reported to be very sturdy.
You can alter somewhat the action of a board by the velocity curve you set, but if the action is inherently stiff like the P515, the velocity curve can't compensate for that.
Last edited by Randyman; 12/02/20 07:39 PM.
Randy Studiologic Numa Piano X73 / Kawai ES920 / Yamaha PSR EW-410 / Casio CT-X5000 Melodica / Alto recorder / iPad music apps
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I second any opinion that says to get "all-in-one" system, especially for children to practice often. This is a simple psychology trick - make things you want to do the most accessible and easy to start. Want to read more books - put book near your rest place, want to drink more water - keep full bottle on your desk, want to practice more piano - leave ready to play instrument in a close proximity.
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As someone who played first acoustic piano and then digital I can tell you that **any** choice you make in digital will be **different** than acoustic. How different and in what regard is what you have to debate.
If you are really serious and can make the effort, for closer to acoustic piano experience you can't go wrong with Kawai's Concert Artist series. I know, it's not one of your list, but it should be. It may require the top money you are willing to spend (or perhaps a little more, the exact prices vary by country) and a bit more effort to move, but not a huge amount. I owned many digital pianos (including a Kawai CA) and these are the closer to the acoustic especially for classical playing (I currently have a much heavier and more expensive Yamaha NU1). I moved the Kawai CA myself, with very little help. It (barely) fits in my car, and I am pretty sure you can fit it in a van. It won't be fun, but neither will be moving the plethora of other items, so don't let that be the showstopper.
If money is a showstopper, see if in your place you can find an used one. For your purpose I am sure that's the best choice.
Best of luck!
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I have three kids who all started with Suzuki piano when they were young. One still plays flute in college, while another will be a jazz piano major next fall. We had an acoustic Yamaha P22 at home, and the digitals have all been complementary.
What is your time horizon? I'd suggest any of the GF3 console Kawai digital pianos if you're buying right now. If you can wait, surely a VPC 2 and MP12 will be out in 2021, right James...??
I'd have thought the new Kawais would be out this year, but am guessing that Covid-related production delays have pushed a lot of new instruments off until next year sometime. Hopefully it won't be later than that...
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Thank you everyone for the advice. There is a fair bit of conflicting advice, so even if we don't go with a route that you've suggested, your feedback has been useful.
I think we'll try find a place to try out the Kawai ES920, and will compare that to the Roland FP-90. Although I suspect that Roland will bring out a replacement for the FP-90 in a few months time, so we may go for a rent to buy option that allows us to exchange in a few months if necessary.
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...will compare that to the Roland FP-90. .... The FP-60 is almost a thousand dollars cheaper (in CAD anyway), but looks similar visually. Might be lighter too. Different action and sound engine though. Why not try both?
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Thank you everyone for the advice. There is a fair bit of conflicting advice, so even if we don't go with a route that you've suggested, your feedback has been useful. 'course that's your life and money, so the choice is only yours. We can only say what we would have done (and in my case what exactly I did for myself and my kids) if/when being in your situation. One other thing that I forgot to mention about the CA is that they disassemble easy, so if the weight of the whole thing is really the limiting factor (e.g. you think you'll be living on a high floor apartment building with small elevator) you also have that option. Best of luck with the purchase but especially with the musical journey of your children!!!
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I think your children as talented as they are need as realistic an action and as realistic a digital "sample/model" as you can afford so that during this transition phase their playing affected as little as possible.
There is no perfect solution once you go digital. It's always a compromise between sound quality and playability, and action.
I would consider the VPC-1 and Pianoteq 7 using the VPC-1's onboard Pianoteq velocity curves. I hook my VPC-1 to a mac mini with and SSD drive. Most modern laptops have enough power to run Pianoteq. It is a very CPU light program. Piano models have improved quite a bit with the recent upgrade.
Most VSTs or onboard digital piano samples sound great but played just don't play like the real thing. Some of this is dependent upon the CPU speed and drive speed of your computer. I feel a disconnect with VST and sampled sounds found on onboard digital pianos's sampled sounds that makes playing them unnatural for me.
If your child was just a beginner dabbling in the piano and just learning the fundamentals none of this would matter. But since your child is talented I would pair her with the best compromise which of the ones you mentioned I think was the VPC-1. It may be one more step and a little more investment in equipment ie. a computer and headphones at the very least in addition to the piano, but I think in your case it would be a worthwhile investment. Regardless there is no perfect solution when you go digital. Maybe get one of the best real action digital hybrids, pair it with Pianoteq 7 and figure out the best velocity setting. It won't sound the best, but it won't hinder your child's progression.
Honestly though, best solution is to get her back in front of that acoustic piano as soon as possible.
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To add something to the above, another poster recommended the FP90 for its action. I've never tried that digital piano so perhaps pairing that digital piano as a controller and combining it with Pianoteq may be a good option as well. Just have your child try out the pianos and try the VSTS versus Pianoteq which can be downloaded as a free trial and see if they feel the difference.
Last edited by Jethro; 12/04/20 12:59 PM.
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