Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards The finalists: Kawai VPC1 and Kawai MP7SE

Hey there,

My plan is to (re)learn playing the piano; I've been playing guitar mainly, but it has become too aggravating for a recurring wrist/elbow injury. I love many genres and I'd love to play many genres, but the emphasis will probably turn out to be on jazz piano.

In my (way too much time taking) search for a digital piano, there's now two candidates left: the Kawai VPC1 and the Kawai MP7SE. I still haven't been able to play the VPC1, so that makes the decision quite a bit more difficult.

What I like about the MP7SE:

• It has built-in sounds, so I can just turn it on and play; no computer required. However, many people seem to much prefer the sounds of VST's like Pianoteq over any existing onboard samples. Any opinions on this?
• It has modulation and pitch wheels - this is not a priority for me but a nice bonus, as I like to play around with other sounds every once in a while.
• It has many other sliders/sound manipulation/MIDI features, of which I find it hard to predict how much I will use. I also wonder if the interface (on such a small screen) can be as intuitive as the manipulation that can be done in, for example, Pianoteq.

What I like about the VPC1:

• I love the clean, non-distracting look.
• The action is supposed to be superior, but I'd love to hear some opinions on this. Do some people actually prefer the MP7SE's RHIII action over the VPC's RM3II action, or is it generally agreed upon that the VPC1's action is superior?
• I've messed around a bit with Pianoteq, using a small, cheap, hard to play MIDI controller, and I quite liked the sound of it. I do still wonder how I'd feel about the need for a laptop (don't have an iPad) every time I'd want to play. I'm curious about your experience with this.
• Not a major point, but the fact that it doesn't require a power outlet seems practical.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated, as I'm getting closer and closer to finally decide

I bought the MP11 (not se) over the MP7 (not se) due to superior action, especially key depth. Recently here, apparently the MP7se has the longer key depth that the MP7 does not. MP11 > VPC1 as to key length, see Pianoman Chuck's uTube video on this. Probably only important if, like me, you have huge hands. +1 on turning on, sitting down and playing. I use Pianotec, internal Kawai, VST. Nice to have all of them.

Thanks Skyscrapersax. I've read many good things about the MP11(SE), it's just too bad that it's so much more expensive than the MP7SE and the VPC1. I wonder if saving up for it for longer would be worth it. I have to say though, I do have huge hands as well..

Hi Kewner,

I've never tried the MP7SE so I can't compare these two actions.

I bought my VPC online from Oostendorp Muziek, could they be near your location? They had it in the showroom when I bought mine (2 weeks ago), you may want to check with them when they will have it back on display.

What I can say is that like my VPC1's action quite a lot (despite some other people having criticized it for its heaviness or the difficulty to play near the fallboard). My grand is easier to play near the fallboard, but it's still quite uncomfortable to do, so I just avoid that.

I also hardly feel refrained by the need of a computer in order to play: my laptop is almost always on during the day so I can just put it on the VPC, plug the MIDI cable and headphones, load a piano VI and play almost instantly. YMMV depending on how powerful/fast your computer setup is and the VI itself. My experience is that Pianoteq loads instantly, while sample-based VIs can take a bit longer to load (the more samples the slower).

Having the samples on a fast hard drive or SSD helps. I hardly notice the loading delay using a Kontakt-based VI, while it's sometimes noticeable for another VI by VSL Synchron.

You can also have a computer always connected and always on (or at least in suspended state), with the instrument preloaded.

Like you say, having one cable to both power the VPC1 and exchange MIDI is really practical

Other advantages you might consider about the MP7SE:

- Possibility to layer up to 4 different sounds, manage the volume of each easily. You can even set VSTs for each layer if you want, or mix the in-built sounds with your VSTs.
- If you enjoy practicing to improve your skills, it has a in-built metronome, and 100 rhythms to accompany you
- You can load SMF files and play a whole band to accompany you

The panel is a little small, but quite intuitive in my humble opinion. Managing a VST on your laptop will still be faster, of course.

From what you said, your main concern is about the keybed (and general look). I've heard the VPC1 is a little heavier. No one can really decide for you because people will feel different. About the RHIII, I was a little disappointed BUT that's because I had been playing all my life on an old Fatar, and I got used to that old keybed. After one week using the RHIII, I start to really enjoy it because my muscles and techniques are adapting. So I think most people will like it from the very beginning.

If you still want a very good keybed, MIDI controller and in-built sounds, why not consider the MP11se?

Hey floknot, yes, Oostendorp is an hour drive from where I live. I've been there some weeks ago, and they had the VPC1 in the showroom but I unfortunately did not bring my laptop. I'm now trying to plan another day to head over there to be able to play it. You might be right about the laptop thing, as my laptop is almost always on too. Did you ever have any noticeable latency? And do you use ASIO4ALL drivers when using Pianoteq? That's what I use to minimize latency, but that does seem to mean that no other software can output any sound while having Pianoteq open - which could be annoying, for example when I'd like to use a backing track or something. Not sure if ASIO4ALL is the only option though.

Mitsu, the layering of different sounds has never really interested me, and I still don't see any case in which I'd like to do that, so I didn't mention it in the advantages. The built-in metronome and rhythms are nice though!

The only reason for not really considering an MP11SE so far has been its price, but hey, maybe it's worth it. I just wonder if the action (of either the MP11SE or the VPC1) is superior to any pianist when comparing it to the MP7SE's action, or if it's still a very personal thing in the end - especially because even acoustic pianos seem to differ so much in that aspect.

Did the RHIII action disappoint at first because it was too light for your liking, or was it something else?

The VPC1 action is NOT the same as the MP11se. Many love the VPC action, but I, for one, did not.
I found it sluggish. The RH3 action in the MP7se may suit you fine. It is, in my case, more fun to play, tho the action is a bit noisy. I owned the 11se and it was a fine instrument. Way above the VPC1.
Are you considering the ES920? same action on the 920 as the 7se.

Thanks IosPlayer, I know they are not the same, but I thought they'd be closer to each other than to the MP7SE. I've also looked at the ES920, and honestly, it's still in the back of my mind. I thought I might get a better sound quality with external speakers than the sound quality that built-in speakers can produce; although getting external speakers would require some additional saving up time. The ES920 is more expensive than the MP7SE and doesn't have modulation/pitch wheels (although that's not that important;). On the other hand I do like the simplicity of the ES920, and the built-in speakers are of course very practical. I haven't been able to try it yet, though.

I see you now have an ES8, what made you switch from the MP11SE?

Obviously actions are a very personal thing. I love the VPC1

EB5AGV... of course, it is personal. I hope I expressed that clearly.

Kewner, I sold the 11se when I left Turkey to return to the US last year. I found the action on the 11 was excellent, but somehow not right for me. I had tried a 7se and thought the action just more fun for me to play. Hence, I got one of the last 8s sold in the US. Very happy with it, but, as I said, a bit noisy.

No, I didn't find the RHIII was too light, I think it's well-balanced. I was first a little disappointed because on my Fatar, the keys come up quickly, but it's not realistic. So when I started using the RHIII, whenever I tried to play something fast, some keys were not completely back to their initial position, and when I pressed a half-down key, I couldn't keep the same dynamics between keys pressed from the top position and keys from pressed from half-down position, I had to push the half-down key a little stronger. It's actually not a problem with the RHIII, but just my technique that was adapted for my old keyboard. After one week, my fingers have already get used to the change, and the problem has almost disappeared. It does have a triple sensor that will let you do trills with proper technique.

So really don't pay attention to the fact I was disappointed, it was really a personal experience because I didn't have the opportunity to practice properly on a good piano. Now that I'm getting used to it, I really appreaciate it.

However, I did read A LOT, and watched all the videos on the keyboards that interested me, and almost everybody who has a good experience with pianos liked the MP11se keybed. Yes the budget is not the same, but depending on how long you'll keep it, it might be worth considering it.

I was also considering the MP11SE as an alternative to the VPC1. I couldn't A/B test them unfortunately. Played the MP11SE in the showroom, ended buying the VPC1 blindly .

The MP11SE's feel is not exactly the same, but still really close to the VPC1's imo. MP11SE's a bit smoother and lighter but it's not like the two actions differ like day and night. To me, GF I (MP11SE) and RM3 Grand II (VPC1) actions feel a lot closer than for example GF I and GF III (CA79).

The GF III would have been a slightly more substantial upgrade from my Casio's action, but I didn't consider that upgrade worth the money. The only real substantial upgrade which would have been worth the money is one to the Novus NV10, but the money wasn't there sadly :p

If you can, A/B test your contenders in the shop, really.


I just use my MacBook's native audio drivers. Latency is really low for most VIs (including Pianoteq). The only VI for which I can only get more or less okay latency (and not super low latency) is one from the VSL Synchron series. Sound from other programs is not blocked, something I actually would appreciate :p The amp's volume needs to be turned pretty high for some VIs. I really don't want any other sound than the piano's to play at those moments!

You can perhaps load both your backing track and Pianoteq in a DAW and let it manage audio output to ASIO4ALL solely? But there are maybe more elegant solutions Windows users here know of...

I personally love the VPC1, it reminds me of my Yamaha C3 grand piano in China. But if you have huge hands, probably the MP11SE would be better, as it has longer keysticks. Or maybe think about the CA79? But I haven't played either but the VPC1, so I might be wrong in my assumptions.

I don't prefer the sound of a VST. MP7SE turns on in under 3 secs and the piano sound is very acceptable. There aren't many VSTs that sound good.

Pianoteq doesn't sound good to me. It just feels good. It's very expressive.

Do you use mod-wheels etc? Do you need a control surface for a DAW or a second keyboard?

MP7SE has one of the most intuitive interfaces among stage pianos. You don't even need to read the manual for most of the parts.

Kewner,

I used to perform (non-classical music) quite a bit on a 7' and 9' Steinway and bought the MP11se because I wanted the best action in a stage dp. I like it a lot, use it mostly for piano and electric piano parts and use other keyboards for organ, strings...
A great piano action can be terrible for playing organ so keep that in mind.

I have not touched the Steinways for 8 months and have been kinda wondering if I'd be (almost) as happy with the MP7se if I was to shop for a dp now. You're not accustomed to the action of a specific acoustic or digital piano so you're "free", go shopping with an open mind.

When I'm in my studio, I enjoy spending hours on VSTs, DAWs, recording, editing but when I just want to sit down and play a song or two or ten, even just waiting for the piano to turn on can be annoying. It's still playing the piano but the feeling is somehow totally different, kinda like driving a little 5-speed convertible on a beautiful Sunday with no place to be vs driving a sedan to work during rush hour. I brought this up because you mention playing jazz, which can be quite a bit different than sitting down to work on a piece of classical music.

Something else worth mentioning, I really like the triple pedal that comes with the MP11se.

Thanks for all the input so far!

IosPlayer: Did you choose the ES8 over the MP7 because of its onboard speakers? Do you find these speakers satisfactory? I guess it also really depends on the room.

Mitsu: Thanks for elaborating! I'm definitely gonna give the MP11SE a try.

floknot: Yes I'll definitely have to test them side by side, it's the only way to get a good impression of their differences. Using a DAW is an option, but that also increases the hassle, loading times and whatnot compared to just opening Pianoteq. But I'll look into other options beside ASIO4ALL, not sure if it's the only way to go.

David Lai: I'd love to get a CA79, but price-wise that's another step up from the MP11SE.. It's really out of my budget at this point. I did see a second hand, good as new Kawai CA58 for 1250 euros, but it seems like it's already been sold now.. Haven't had the chance to really look into that one.

Abdol: Thanks. I'd use mod-wheels if I'd have 'em, mostly just to play around with when using different sounds, but it's no priority and definitely not a hard requirement for me.

djvu10: I don't have any real organ playing plans, although I do like that versatility of the action that comes with the MP7SE. I guess it indeed also depends on (not) being accustomed to any particular action. I totally understand what you're saying about waiting for the piano to turn on, and I feel more and more drawn towards piano that does have onboard sounds, as I just don't feel all that good about havnig to deal with the extra hassle/technicalities of always being dependant on seperate software.


Like I wrote, I saw a second hand, good as new Kawai CA58 for 1250 euros some days ago, which unfortunately seems to be sold now. Since I plan to only play at home, cabinet pianos like this could also still be an option, if I can get a good deal on one. It's hard to find good reviews of many of these models though.

In my opinion general VSTs sounds much better on a VPC1 than on other DPs or Masterkeyboards. Because thats what they are made for!!!!
An action of a DP is made for triggering the intern sound engine at its best. So for me thats a great difference.

Do you mean a MIDI note on event with a 42 velocity value will be prepared more carefully by a VPC1 than by a DP, then sounds much better ?

The VPC1 action is a RM3 Grand 2, exactly like in some Kawai DP. The only advantage of the VPC1 is that it has 4 velocity curves designed for 4 virtual pianos (Ivory, Pianoteq, Galaxy, Alexia’s keys). Then if you have one of these virtual piano and a VPC1, the curve tweaking is already done. If you have other VST or a DP, you may have to tweak the curve to obtain a similar result. Note : I have many virtual pianos and use them with the default curve with my Clavinova and find no reason to adjust the curve. I would not say the same about my Roland A500pro controller, but it is not really made to play the piano.

Note « general VSTs sounds » can mean any VST : virtual piano, orchestra, synthesiser ore whatever else. The VPC1 is made to control a virtual piano. If you control other VST, you may not need graded hammer (Yamaha would name some non graded hammer action, balanced hammer action).

Is it fair to assume that the ‘intern’ you talk about could someday be running things?

If so, then we should not be too harsh on the ‘intern sound engine’ since it is only an intern, after all.

Let us wait and hope that the intern (sound engine) could someday grow into a robust CEO!

Whichever gizmo you buy, check out my real life teacher Kent Hewitt's uTube educational channel. You will not regret it!