2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
37 members (Charles Cohen, dima5222, cygnusdei, David B, Calavera, Animisha, deadlymajesty, 13 invisible), 974 guests, and 748 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
#3043043 11/05/20 06:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Hi,

last year I purchased a Roland GO:PIANO, and now the middle G is broken and I need something new. I will probably send it for repair, but it has other keys that are behaving the same like the G did before it broke. I believe it's certain white keys, which I obviously have played to often or maybe with too much force, without knowing. The springs seem to get lose.

Anyway, I am a bad piano player, just bad, because my left hand is handicapped. It just doesn't really react to my whishes in any good way, it's clunky and stays like this. Still, I would like to buy an instrument that allows fast repetitions. More or less because I'm bad but I like hearing chords.

I've never had any DP with hammers, I think, maybe a Korg once. I want one that makes the sounds (plays the samples) always when you press the key down, even when it was already depressed a bit already. I mean, not something with a sensor that might miss what I want to play. It should miss (fail to react to) only the things that an acoustic piano would miss too.

And fast repeating should be a fun thing. Or, in general, control over that mechanic. And the keys should make it easier for me to stay "fluent" (as if I were a good player).

Heavy to press keys would allow me to train my left hand to get any good out of it at all. So, the grading should get heavy for the left hand. And maybe lighter and "fluent-ish" for the right hand. I know, it should be like this. But I don't need training for my right hand. It's twice as good, and that is a bad thing. I mean, I don't know why I'm so right-handed.

So, what price range should I pick? I want to stay < 2500 EUR. And maybe, what brand and model?

I like the happy music Hiromi plays and some Debussy and some Jazz things. I dislike anything that is like baroque and slow music, because I'm hasty. Wish I were not.

Unfortunately there's no (open) store anywhere near, and I have no clue.

Thanks for reading!
Kind regards, sorry, much text.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Oh, one thing. I'm actually looking at the stage pianos with built-in speakers, because I think I could just put it on a wooden table and it would not shake. Not really because it's cheaper, but I can sit at the height I like to sit at, and choose at which height the piano is. Or I could put it on the bed for very cozy music making, maybe.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Forget what I said about built-in speakers, I will buy external speakers. And in-bed music is ruled out. It seems the only fun with built-in speakers is that the instrument resonates itself, creating some sense of playing an instrument instead of a setup, maybe? But a setup will just sound better.

What I have read in this forum here is that Yamaha build quality should be always okay enough, other brands might have occasionally slight problems? Or is build quality just the same in every brand, or does it depend on the model and price range and luck?

Yamaha looks interesting to me because I think any static weight will be good for my left hand. But Roland offers that too. And I don't know if I make sense, because maybe I need just to work out and train my muscles like with weight lifting, and use the piano to train "awareness" or "feel" instead. So I would need durable, light keys.

Thanks for reading. smile

Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 481
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 481
Just when I thought I could understand what you were looking for... I was wrong. You're kinda half describing wanting a synth, half describing wanting a digital piano... then changed your mind, so I'll hold off making any kind of a recommendation smile

If you're at all serious about playing, don't put the piano on your bed or on a table because proper height is important. No matter what piano you get or how good or bad your playing is right now, give yourself every chance to improve. It's difficult to improve or even to just play for any length of time if you're not in a comfortable position, can't use the pedal...

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Thanks, yes, I want to train my left hand, and I do indeed like synthesizers. But first the training of the hand. I think a DP with heavy keys would be good. At some time I had an old Yamaha CLP that had very, very heavy keys and it helped me a lot to improve to any good level at all. The GO:PIANO had a bit heavy keys too, but they became broken relatively quickly.

I have read here in a post that the Yamaha 515B has keys that are heavy, but the weight is only initially there, and the poster was not really satisfied with the piano, with any of the pianos he tried at that time.

In my left hand there is some stiffness around my ring finger, taking the pinky and the middle finger with it. I want to start there and get rid of this. And I want the practising to be fun.

Thanks for your reply. I'll postpone my synthesizer thoughts. Need to become a better piano player first.

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,636
C
6000 Post Club Member
Online Content
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,636
Originally Posted by meba
. . . Thanks, yes, I want to train my left hand, and I do indeed like synthesizers. But first the training of the hand. I think a DP with heavy keys would be good. At some time I had an old Yamaha CLP that had very, very heavy keys and it helped me a lot to improve to any good level at all. The GO:PIANO had a bit heavy keys too, but they became broken relatively quickly.

The GO:PIANO has spring-action (or "synth action") keys:

. . . They are not "weighted keys".

Whereas the keys on Yamaha CLP models _are_ weighted keys.

Quote
. . .
Anyway, I am a bad piano player, just bad, because my left hand is handicapped. It just doesn't really react to my wishes in any good way, it's clunky and stays like this. Still, I would like to buy an instrument that allows fast repetitions. More or less because I'm bad but I like hearing chords.
. . .

First, a question:

. . . What kind of music do you want to play ?


If I had limited control over my left hand -- so that playing chords, with my left hand, was really difficult -- I'd look at "arranger pianos" (with weighted keys), or "arranger keyboards" (with synth-action keys).

. . . They will play chords, guided by _one finger_ (or two or three fingers) of the left hand,
. . . using a simplified fingering system.

. . . That's called "auto-chording" and/or "auto accompaniment".

That feature isn't useful for classical piano playing, but it's handy for pop music, and some folk music.

. . . It might be a reasonable choice for you.


Examples of "arranger pianos" are the Casio PX-S3000 and PX-560. (I think Yamaha makes them also, but I don't know the models.) There are lots of other makers.

Example of "arranger keyboards" are the Casio MZ-X 300, MZ-X 500 (and others), and the Yamaha PSR-3xx and PSR-4xx models (and more-expensive models as well). There are lots of other makers -- Korg makes some very fine ones.

All of them will work with "auto-accompaniment" turned off, and let you play whatever you want with your left hand.

Most of them (all of them?) come with built-in loudspeakers, and you can add additional loudspeakers if you choose.


In the hands of a skilled player, they can sound pretty good.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 481
D
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
D
Joined: Oct 2019
Posts: 481
Meba,

I've had 8 digital pianos in the past 27 years, 5 just in past 6 years (guitarists have the tendency to buy multiple of everything???) and my current DP is a Kawai MP11se; it's a 75lb stage piano without speakers and has a very realistic piano action. The MP7se is not nearly as heavy, is well in your budget might be a very good choice for you.

You may also want to buy a 61-note arranger like Charles suggested. Those can be a fun addition to your piano.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Thank you. smile

Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
. . . What kind of music do you want to play ?

This is a hard question for me.

The music should vary from relaxing to fascinating. Mostly it should build up tension with harmonies, maybe with something like minor chords, then it could resolve into something like bebop major chords, without doing this in an obvious fashion. It should be original. It should contain virtuosity, at least in the later part. It should be hard to remember and hard to stay away from it.

If this kind of applies, I want to learn it. Hiromi plays some music like this, but I'm not into any genre specifically. I guess expressionism is the word I'm looking for.

Hiromi's interpretation of "I got rhythm" is a piano piece I like, and Gershwin I kind of also like. Unfortunately I'm highly unskilled.

The arranger functions are not what I'm looking for, I believe.

I can play quite a few chords with my left hand. But the rhythm of every of these chords will be bad, especially with broken chords. I wouldn't be able to play a boogie yet, I would need 1000 hours more practise for any precision or fluidity at all.

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by meba
I guess expressionism impressionism is the word I'm looking for.

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
Meba,

I read you want to become a better piano player and that you also want to train your left hand.

Before you read the rest of my post, some questions:

1. Do you have a teacher? He or she could help you choose an appropriate instrument, taking your current level, preferences and issues into consideration.

2. Have you access to acoustic pianos (at your teacher, music school, relatives, ...)? Do you like playing some of them? Since DPs try to simulate the touch of acoustic pianos, it can be good to have a reference point on what feel you like or not. As you may know, there's not just one acoustic piano feel similar across all pianos, but many of them.

I'd stress the need to get a good teacher (if you don't have one yet) to address your left hand issues. That's just the fastest way to address any technical issues. If physical lessons are not possible, there are also online options where you can post a video recording and get feedback from a real teacher. I understand you want to freely choose your repertoire, know that good teachers also take the student's taste into consideration. But they will guard you against playing something way too difficult for your level, as it usually has an adverse effect on your progress than the opposite.

Now back to the DP:

For your budget, there are a lot of options (and honestly I don't think you even need to go towards the higher end of your budget to get a decent instrument).

But you definitely need a graded hammer action in your digital which simulates the heavier action on lower notes of acoustic pianos. There are a lot of brands and a lot of models which do provide that, choice enough smile And also countless threads on PW which highlights the pros and cons of each. Just go the DP forum, there should be such a thread, usually already on the first page. I remember posting on this thread, where a few entry-level and mid-level models were suggested by various members. Pricier models within your budget, like the MP7SE or MP11SE, are of course also likely to satisfy, but in the end it's your taste and your feeling of value for the money that matter. So you will have to try them out in order to know if they fit.

Depending on where you are located, it may be difficult to get access to instruments to try out these days. You may also want to consider a blind online purchase and return the item if you don't like it.

Last edited by floknot; 11/06/20 01:51 AM.

Estonia L190, Kawai VPC1, Casio AP-450
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by floknot
You may also want to consider a blind online purchase and return the item if you don't like it.

I have now ordered a Yamaha P-121 B (73 keys). The P-125 (88 keys) was only available in white. So I'll have a 73 keys instrument, that is an upgrade from 61 keys in the roland go piano. I think the lower-most d#3 isn't thaat important, but, maybe it is. Bad luck, hehe.

I have realized that I need to practise, start practising next week, really try it, and I'll read here to learn.

Thanks for your post too. smile

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
Wow, that was quick! smile

Well, whether you will miss these 13 keys depends on what you're playing. I hardly find myself playing the "outer" octaves of the keyboard with my current repertoire, but I probably also wouldn't dare ordering a DP w/o a full-size keyboard just because of stock shortage on the full-size keyboard model :p

Doesn't Thomann deliver to your place?

Last edited by floknot; 11/06/20 02:29 AM.

Estonia L190, Kawai VPC1, Casio AP-450
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
Originally Posted by meba
I have realized that I need to practise, start practising next week, really try it, and I'll read here to learn.

If you practise _right_, progress will inevitably follow. But if you practise wrong (because practising right is also something piano students need to learn) you can lose a lot of precious time and get frustrated.

I know too little about you to tell if you're a self learner or not and what your piano/music background is, but your messages suggest me you're self-learning.

If you got previous training and know how to practise correctly, than it can be fine to learn on your own (though you still miss a lot by not having a teacher).

The pitfall of self learning is the lack of guidance and feedback from an expert, from the very basics (posture, avoiding tension, technique) to much more advanced topics (musical understanding, phrasing, musicality, intonation, voicing, ...)

I know these pitfalls because I'm a self-learner smile I had teachers in the past, but I'm now without one for various reasons. I'm seeking one for the near future, however smile


Estonia L190, Kawai VPC1, Casio AP-450
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Thomann delivers to me, but their P-125 would need week to be in stock, and another store hat the 121 just in stock.

Yes, I'm a self learner. I need to be, people make me too nervous.

I have just tried to find different approaches, on my Roland Go, and avoiding tension was one of my "ideas". Knowing that .. I should try to really, really, really try to avoid tension. I believe it has helped 1% already. Tried to play broken chords with the left hand. And from looking at a YT video (one with the guy with the leather jacket) I learned to bend my fingers downwards a bit. That gives some flexibility, right?

I had a few organ lessons at some shop when I was a child, and later I tried accordion. It was a so-so experience. I'm handicapped (various neurological disorders attested, I can't even really write with a pencil most of the time). I'm the wrong person to try to play actually. And I'm against notes, they look just wrong wink jk. I have a hard time reading notes, any other method of learning will motivate me.

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
Huh, I guess you _really_ can't wait to play again then laugh

Anyway it's awesome to see you like playing piano so much and don't let that handicap stay in the way!

Originally Posted by meba
I'm the wrong person to try to play actually.

Don't be so negative about yourself (or let anyone convince you of that). There are no "wrong" people to play piano. You are a "right" piano player as long as you enjoy playing it.

I don't know which YT video you're talking about and can't really figure out what you mean with "bending your fingers downwards". Do you mean you used to play chords with fingers completely straight?

Keep in mind you're not only playing with your fingers. Your whole body is involved (wrists, arms, shoulders, back). Even the way you rest your legs has an impact on your stability.

I followed some of the beginner courses at PianoCareerAcademy a few years ago. Ilinca goes to great lengths to explain how to avoid tension, good posture, etc. Courses are recorded videos, so this may fit the bill if you want to learn but avoid social contact wink On the other hand they have a teacher to which you can submit video of yourself playing and ask for feedback. I'm not affiliated to them and can't attest how good the feedback is since I'm no longer a member (I'm however considering becoming one again, mostly to have feedback from a real teacher on how I play).


Estonia L190, Kawai VPC1, Casio AP-450
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,636
C
6000 Post Club Member
Online Content
6000 Post Club Member
C
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6,636
Stay in touch, let us know how the P-121 works out.

Your next step -- once the piano arrives -- should probably be into the "Adult Beginners" forum.

Have fun --


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
Got it.

Piano Variation 2 sounds really nice, sound is okay overall.

But..is it normal for hammer-keys to rest a bit longer in the depressed state than spring-keys? I guess so because there's no constant-ish force from a spring but a weight which is more like accumulating the force? I have no idea about these things. The last time I touched a piano was 15 years ago.

On the one side I need to stop being hasty anyways and start becoming more fluent. On the other side the 20 minutes I have played on the P-121 now, the keys all feel a bit "resty" and I don't know how other pianos are, but I believe I can't expect more. Or maybe I can, when there is more weight at the keys?

Is "bouncy" actually a positive or a negative term for piano keys? I think they could be a bit more bouncy.

Kind regards

Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
I'll keep it. Very good build quality, all keys the same, black keys not louder, much expression, one really good piano sound, matte look, big fat Yamaha logo on the back. I'm happy with my purchase.

Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
F
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
F
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 80
Congrats for your purchase, meba! Great to see you like it.

Originally Posted by meba
But..is it normal for hammer-keys to rest a bit longer in the depressed state than spring-keys? I guess so because there's no constant-ish force from a spring but a weight which is more like accumulating the force? I have no idea about these things. The last time I touched a piano was 15 years ago.

I don't know how your P-121 feels, so I can't say if its "resty" feel/lack of bounce is something you should be concerned about. But your assumption is accurate: in hammer actions, no springs directly exert an upward force upon the keys to get them back to their rest position. There may be springs involved (there are also springs in acoustic piano actions), but it's a more complex system of levers than spring-based keys. Gravity needs to help, and all those parts have inertia.


Estonia L190, Kawai VPC1, Casio AP-450
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
M
meba Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
M
Joined: Nov 2020
Posts: 17
The key E-5 now makes a chhhh noise when I press it. Is it loud? No. Is it quiet? Definitely not.

1) Ignore it
2) Do something about it?

But what should I do about this. It's totally inside the thing.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Pianos - Organs - & Keyboards, Oh My!
My first professionally recorded piece
---------------------
Visit Maine, Meet Mr. Piano World
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
When Mozart plays a mean trick on you
by cygnusdei - 11/28/21 02:20 AM
Thin\hollow sound - improvement possible?
by TBell - 11/28/21 01:26 AM
Es920
by Jitin - 11/27/21 10:11 PM
Shopping spree reports
by Marc345 - 11/27/21 06:24 PM
Fishy scientific experiment - needs candidates.
by ZeroZero - 11/27/21 04:09 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics210,282
Posts3,149,254
Members103,450
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5