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First of all I want to say that is not my statement !
This comes from the "review" from Pricepoint.This no doubt is partly a reaction to CBECHSTEIN's new decision to now use the C on the fallboard of the Academy series.
If one reads the whole "write up" of the article it mentions the Renner action of CBECHSTEIN pianos but then mentions that
the Academy has Chinese action parts .
What is the clear meaning of this combination of statements?
Does it mean that the Academy series uses a Renner action mixed with Chinese parts or is the Action a Chinese Action ?
Apart from this is the piano strung back in China or Germany.
Recently we were passing a dealer and we just went in out of curiosity. I have never actually played an Academy 124 before
so I tried the piano. Well sure not as good as the 124 regular line but really quite a nice piano.
Here is a link to the review.


https://pianopricepoint.com/bechstein-b124-upright-piano/

Last edited by Ken Knapp; 10/18/20 08:31 AM. Reason: Edit title
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You misquoted the article. It says Renner style parts. You should use the Piano Buyer as the most accurate source for information, although I think the site you used may take a lot of their information from the Piano Buyer.

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I can understand the need for clarification as Bechstein's less expensive Academy series of pianos were identified by "Bechstein" on the fall-board and "C.Bechstein" was reserved for their premier quality instruments. Kawai uses a similar distinction between its vertical acoustic pianos and digital pianos which display "Kawai" on the instrument while the acoustic grand pianos show "K. Kawai".
The C.Bechstein firm made its impressive reputation on its legacy of great pianos proudly bearing "C. Bechstein". Adding the "C" enhances the resonance of the name of the company's founder.

Robert.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
You misquoted the article. It says Renner style parts. You should use the Piano Buyer as the most accurate source for information, although I think the site you used may take a lot of their information from the Piano Buyer.
Yes I later realised they were calling the A124 by the old name of the model ( B124 ) and then later they said this model has the name BECHSTEIN on the fallboard.(not C BECHSTEIN)
The trouble is later they talk about the Academy 124 so yes I was confused.
Of course there has been discussions here about BECHSTEIN
B124 now beimg called the model "CBECHSTEIN A124" . The C is now added and the model is now reffered to as A124 not B124 !

This caused me to read the article as implying they have just "labeled the piano as BECHSTEIN" (when it is not really that at all , but just a little higher than a W Hoffman)
So by changing the identity of the model can really create confusion about the true quality of the model
Well what on earth are "Renner style parts" ? That is really confusing or do BECHSTEIN really intend to be that opaque.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 10/17/20 06:28 PM. Reason: spelling
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
You misquoted the article. It says Renner style parts. You should use the Piano Buyer as the most accurate source for information, although I think the site you used may take a lot of their information from the Piano Buyer.
Yes I later realised they were calling the A124 by the old name of the model ( B124 ) and then later they said this model has the name BECHSTEIN on the fallboard.(not C BECHSTEIN)
The trouble is later they talk about the Academy 124 so yes I was confused.
Of course there has been discussions here about BECHSTEIN
B124 now beimg called the model "CBECHSTEIN A124" . The C is now added and the model is now reffered to as A124 not B124 !

This caused me to read the article as implying they have just "labeled the piano as BECHSTEIN" (when it is not really that at all , but just a little higher than a W Hoffman)
So by changing the identity of the model can really create confusion about the true quality of the model
Well what on earth are "Renner style parts" ? That is really confusing or do BECHSTEIN really intend to be that opaque.
Except for your last sentence your post has nothing to do with what I said.

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Well yes, and no pianoloverus. I simple added my confusion at misreading the article because the models name was changed. So obviously my first impression was rather negative. The confusion was the reason I started the thread .
However the negative perception and common interest still makes me question "Renner style action with Chinese parts" ?

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At one time, a long time ago (pre-2010 anyway) it wasn't clear where the academy line was made. It was thought by most to be a product of the Czech factory, finished in Germany, but people really didn't know and at that time Bechstein were not always very clear about the origin of the pianos. They realised this was obviously not what they wanted for the company and so in more recent years *if* they had made any Academy series pianos in Czechia they stopped that, moved the production entirely to Germany, and the recent rebranding of the Academy instruments with the "C. Bechstein" name is to clear up any confusion. They're saying that the pianos are C. Bechsteins, made in the same factory, but it's the production techniques that differ and not the country of origin.

Renner-style action parts just mean that the action parts are similar to the ones used in the Concert line of pianos but they're made in China. Renner parts are actually very expensive and that can mean the difference of a few thousand dollars in the finished product. Chinese action parts from Hailun in particular, and Pearl River, are now of excellent quality, regulate very well, and last a long time and so personally I don't think there are negative connotations with that anymore.

Renner, by the way, are an action maker and not an action designer. Renner build to the piano maker's spec, so a Renner action for a Blüthner is not the same as a Renner action for a Bechstein, or a Steinway or whatever, so the reviewer saying "Renner style action" doesn't really mean anything by that.


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Originally Posted by Joseph Fleetwood
Renner, by the way, are an action maker and not an action designer. Renner build to the piano maker's spec, so a Renner action for a Blüthner is not the same as a Renner action for a Bechstein, or a Steinway or whatever, so the reviewer saying "Renner style action" doesn't really mean anything by that.

I did not know That

A Good example of Why I enjoy Your comments - Thanks!


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Originally Posted by Lucubrate
Originally Posted by Joseph Fleetwood
Renner, by the way, are an action maker and not an action designer. Renner build to the piano maker's spec, so a Renner action for a Blüthner is not the same as a Renner action for a Bechstein, or a Steinway or whatever, so the reviewer saying "Renner style action" doesn't really mean anything by that.

I did not know That

A Good example of Why I enjoy Your comments - Thanks!


~Lucubrate
Same here,
Still do not know why its marketed as "Renner stylea action" ?
I wonder how much time is spent preparing, voicing this series compared to the higher level 124 CBECHSTEIN

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I thought this has been clarified months ago and finally laid to rest, but, no, again there is a really unbearably silly discussion with lots of speculation, misinformation and insinuations about Bechstein.

No matter whether it's Bechstein or C.Bechstein on the fallboard, it's a piano designed by Bechstein in Germany and built in the German Bechstein factory in Seifhennersdorf, Saxony

The W.Hoffmann brand designates pianos that are designed by the Bechstein engineers in Germany and are manufactured in the Czech factory in Hradec Kralove.

I would usually have offered a free tour of the Bechstein factory, but since the health of our employees is paramount to anything else, we currently do not offer these tours. Rest assured that we do not use this clear policy to secretly import cheap pianos and build them into black case with the Bechstein logo sprayed on.

Disclaimer: I work for Bechstein as project manager, but I am not involved in marketing, sales or production. I have also been active on this forum long before I joined Bechstein and I strictly speak for myself, not for the company. My main piano is an 1886 Steinway B.

Can we please let this thread with a rather provocative subject line die now?

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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
I thought this has been clarified months ago and finally laid to rest, but, no, again there is a really unbearably silly discussion with lots of speculation, misinformation and insinuations about Bechstein.

No matter whether it's Bechstein or C.Bechstein on the fallboard, it's a piano designed by Bechstein in Germany and built in the German Bechstein factory in Seifhennersdorf, Saxony

The W.Hoffmann brand designates pianos that are designed by the Bechstein engineers in Germany and are manufactured in the Czech factory in Hradec Kralove.

I would usually have offered a free tour of the Bechstein factory, but since the health of our employees is paramount to anything else, we currently do not offer these tours. Rest assured that we do not use this clear policy to secretly import cheap pianos and build them into black case with the Bechstein logo sprayed on.

Disclaimer: I work for Bechstein as project manager, but I am not involved in marketing, sales or production. I have also been active on this forum long before I joined Bechstein and I strictly speak for myself, not for the company. My main piano is an 1886 Steinway B.

Can we please let this thread with a rather provocative subject line die now?

This may be a case where the moderator needs to change the subject line which is clearly incorrect.

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Just to clarify, for those reporting this topic...

Piano World is a venue. EACH poster is RESPONSIBLE for their own posts. We do not have the TIME OR THE RESOURCES to fact check what people post. Each member has the ability to rebut what someone posts, and is free to do so as long as the discussion is kept civil.

So if you post something inaccurate, be prepared to be corrected. If you see someone posted something that is inaccurate, you are free to advise them of that fact. As long as nobody is mean spirited about it.

But if anyone thinks we are going to start being fact checkers, you're barking up the wrong tree.


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Actually nobody has said that C. Bechstein currently makes any piano with the C. Bechstein or Bechstein name in any factory other than their Saxony factory, and the question being raised here is about the action parts used in the silver-line action. More specifically, the question is about the article on piano price-point talking about a "Renner-style" action.

Ladybird, it might be helpful for you to know that on the C.Bechstein website they do not use the phrase "Renner-style" for the action of this piano, and they do not disclose the country of origin of the parts. In fact looking at the specifications for all the Bechstein pianos from the Concert D down, they don't feel the need to specify what action maker is used to make the parts. I suspect that this is because the action maker is something that they can change over time without too much/any difference in quality, and it saves them from having the change their marketing every time they change a supplier for a part.


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This has been happening for a while. I have a Bechstein A114, manufactured in 2018, and it had C. Bechstein on the fall board.

The action was a step above the Yamahas and Kawaii’s I tried. And it was comparable and competed with a lot of other top brands. You can see my experiences here:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...hstein-academy-uprights.html#Post2927286


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...would like to propose a new thread with a title something like this: "What IS a real Renner action?"

Briefly - two cases. From looking at the action in a 1980s Baldwin SD-10, it had Renner marked in various places, and it seemed to my eyes to be a Renner action. Some years back I owned and enjoyed a Weber (by Young Chang) 208cm grand. It was clearly a copy of an older Bechstein model from the point of view of the scale (it sounded very good, rather German in its tonal profile, but didn't have the life and depth of the real thing, but still 10% of the cost or something like that, but I digress). It was advertised as having a Renner action. From what could be seen, the shanks and flanges were Renner "style" as were the wippens. That said, the workmanship of the shanks was not the equal of shanks purchased from Renner more recently for my Steinert. The knuckles weren't as well mounted nor was the knuckle material quite so fine (I think); the shanks didn't have the same taper to them. I don't remember the wippens well enough to comment on specifics, but they were certainly similar to the Renner wippens we put on my Steinert if not identical. The Weber also used springs to enhance repetition, and those are not part of other Renner style actions.

So... there's a beginning. If there's any interest, I'll start a new thread.


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I apologize, I stumbled into this thread by misreading, and misunderstood that article.This as I said happend after playing playing piano in a music store the other day.
After playing the instrument I thought it was an excellent. It also sounds far nicer than the W Hoffman.( which is also a very good piano) I wished I could have spent more time at it. The A124 sounds like a European piano and of course it is made right there in Germany and has a European spruce soundboard and even real ebony keys. As I said I preffered the Classic 124, it has a real kind of magic in tone and response.
The trouble is the last time I played that piano was 2years ago.
The Classic is nearly twice price of the A124 so perhaps its the Classic which is overpriced !

WTM , yes I am sure it is a beautiful piano and has a beautiful tone and response ., I have not looked at the link yet.

OEIFEU Your response just surprises me ! What do you
expect ordinary mortals who cannot just buy the absolute luxury ,very top uprights in the world to do ?
Are they not allowed to find out the details of what they would like buy , or out of pure interest like myself.
Bechstein created this confusion by not always being clear !

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Please change the subject line if you wish .
It would be a rather ironic, considering. But I did misread the article.

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
OEIFEU Your response just surprises me ! What do you
expect ordinary mortals who cannot just buy the absolute luxury ,very top uprights in the world to do ?
Are they not allowed to find out the details of what they would like buy , or out of pure interest like myself.
Bechstein created this confusion by not always being clear !

On the contrary. Bechstein has always been clear in stating that above everything else quality and customer satisfaction are the top priorities, no matter whether it's an affordable upright or a concert grand. The origin of a specific part is completely irrelevant as long as it conforms to the high standards of what a company provides to a customer. And to make this crystal clear: This goes for each and everyone of our friendly competition, be it Bösendorfer, Yamaha, Kawai, Steinway, Blüthner, Fazioli and all the other top brands.

Can any company guarantee that one particular screw is not Made in China, Taiwan or Indonesia? No. Can any of the top brands guarantee that this particular screw conforms to the highest standards their customers expect? Absolutely.

Just like every other innovative piano manufacturer out there, Bechstein has a Research and Development department and is slowly introducing improvements that have turned out to be positive for the customer's playing and listening experience. That also means that there are changes and that may well extend into the suppliers chosen for specific parts. Sometimes there are minimal changes, such as choosing a screw not made in Poland but made in China for any number of reasons. Sometimes there are drastic changes such as completely replacing crucial components like hammerheads. By now, every single piano from the Bechstein and W.Hoffmann brand features hammers that are exclusively produced in the German Bechstein factory with material that comes from a felt company close by.

This means that Bechstein doesn't use Renner hammers anymore, different from a couple of years ago. So far our customers have given us the feedback that those hammers are of superb quality.

Different from a computer or mobile phone, a piano is not a welded shut black box. An experienced technician can take apart a concert grand into basically all of its components and look at each component from a perspective of quality: Durability, precision, resilience, compatibility etc. Which means that you as a customer have every right to take a look at every single component of a piano and I am confident that every single dealer will be happy to open a piano, if you have specific question about specific components or even single parts. And that goes for each and every of our friendly competitors.

What I am annoyed with is this ever recurring subject that insinuates certain Far East supplies for entire component groups are being used in the Bechstein or W.Hoffmann branded pianos. By now I have made it clear multiple times that No matter whether it's Bechstein or C.Bechstein on the fallboard, it's a piano designed by Bechstein in Germany and built in the German Bechstein factory in Seifhennersdorf, Saxony

As to the originally quoted article, any informed observer should have taken notice of the fact that it does not contain any official reference to a Bechstein publication. Most of it is outdated, some of it is missing and some of it plain wrong. Please use our official website and the very detailed information in the brochures there and/or talk to an official Bechstein dealer for information that will help anyone to make an informed buying decision. And, again, this goes for each and everyone of our friendly competitors who will tell you that they are the only solid and reliable source of information, not some third party that collects and processes information that no manufacturer can control.

Can we please leave it at that once and for all? Pretty please?

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Whew! Did I feel a blast of hot air !

I would say it serves Bechstein right for being so evasive. Change subject heading please., This is not my thread , I do not own it. You tend to be demeaning when you speak "down to people" OEIFEU .You cannot order people to stop writing in the thread.

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Originally Posted by OE1FEU
No matter whether it's Bechstein or C.Bechstein on the fallboard, it's a piano designed by Bechstein in Germany and built in the German Bechstein factory in Seifhennersdorf, Saxony

You're quick to double down on this bolded quote, but you're vague and expansive about what mundane parts may be sourced abroad.

The web page in question states clearly that action parts are sourced from China.

Why not concretely refute that assertion (or simply acknowledge it)?

That seems to be the issue. And the answer to that question would, well, answer the question.


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