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#3033412 10/08/20 12:59 PM
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There is regular discussion here whether sampling is better than modeling. That debate may be tilting as modeling becomes more sophisticated. The Italian company, Audio Modeling, was founded in 2017. Their expensive acoustic emulations are certainly malleable and super expressive.

Each SWAM instrument costs $100-250. Their full line up is still incomplete and costs over five grand, I believe,

It is an amazing and long awaited development that some of these instruments will now be released on the iPad/iOS platform at $15 each! Obviously, not the same as desktop, but it will advance iOS acoustic authenticity to a new level.

I hope there will be no hostile engagement about the superiority of sampling. In my mind it seems rather obvious, when you hear the quality of these instruments, especially the strings, that if modeling does not offer 100% emulation at the moment, that future developments will bring it ever closer. Sampling, otoh, has pretty much reached it’s limit. With sampling you are replaying a recording of vibrato, for example, whereas with modeling the vibrato is recreated each time from scratch and the algorithms can still be improved. Unless I am misunderstanding what I have read and seen.

https://youtu.be/9fiUOKdE500


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070 for jazz, classical, world, rock tracks Albums on Bandcamp: https://michaelalevy.bandcamp.com/music
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When we debate here about sampling vs. modelling, it is about piano sampling vs. piano modelling. I think that some instruments are easier to sample and other easier to model.

With a piano, the player has no control on the note excepted the velocity. (Ok, the acceleration with the CLP700 series). Then a set of samples makes the job. (I know it is more complicated : half pedalling, resonance...)

With a wind instrument, the virtual instruments has to transpose breath controller input to sound alteration. Modelling can be more efficient. And even if the basic wave form used by modelling could seem synthetic, the alteration can bring live and mask the synthetic feature.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/08/20 01:11 PM.

http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
I hope there will be no hostile engagement about the superiority of sampling. In my mind it seems rather obvious, when you hear the quality of these instruments, especially the strings, that if modeling does not offer 100% emulation at the moment, that future developments will bring it ever closer. Sampling, otoh, has pretty much reached it’s limit. With sampling you are replaying a recording of vibrato, for example, whereas with modeling the vibrato is recreated each time from scratch and the algorithms can still be improved. Unless I am misunderstanding what I have read and seen.

You are misunderstanding.

The entire discussion based on fact, that people don't understand how modern DSP sound synthesis with sample memory works and that PCs sample libraries don't represent the state of the art hardware synthesis technology. The latter is due to the fact they're limited to run on General Purpose CPUs.

GPCPUs are pretty fast at doing almost anything, but they are slow on doing specific tasks. Like rendering 3D graphics, which is done on GPUs. Or processing samples, which is done on Digital Signal Processors (DSPs) built into digital pianos.

And just for starters: The best modeling implementation available is not some iOS app, it's Roland's V-Piano.


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JoeT, I am not suggesting that iOS apps come close to desktop virtual instruments, just that these exceptional desktop instruments will be available on the iOS platform.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070 for jazz, classical, world, rock tracks Albums on Bandcamp: https://michaelalevy.bandcamp.com/music
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
There is regular discussion here whether sampling is better than modeling. That debate may be tilting as modeling becomes more sophisticated. The Italian company, Audio Modeling, was founded in 2017. Their expensive acoustic emulations are certainly malleable and super expressive.

Each SWAM instrument costs $100-250. Their full line up is still incomplete and costs over five grand, I believe,

It is an amazing and long awaited development that some of these instruments will now be released on the iPad/iOS platform at $15 each! Obviously, not the same as desktop, but it will advance iOS acoustic authenticity to a new level.

I hope there will be no hostile engagement about the superiority of sampling. In my mind it seems rather obvious, when you hear the quality of these instruments, especially the strings, that if modeling does not offer 100% emulation at the moment, that future developments will bring it ever closer. Sampling, otoh, has pretty much reached it’s limit. With sampling you are replaying a recording of vibrato, for example, whereas with modeling the vibrato is recreated each time from scratch and the algorithms can still be improved. Unless I am misunderstanding what I have read and seen.

https://youtu.be/9fiUOKdE500

Don't get to excited!

They use samples as the main source for the sound and I don't think SWAM produces the tones using physical modeling.

This is physical modeling






With MOSS and VL1 you can create some extraterrestrial sounds. With SWAM, you can't do sh!t.

Last edited by Abdol; 10/08/20 02:16 PM.

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Originally Posted by Abdol
They use samples as the main source for the sound and I don't think SWAM produces the tones using physical modeling.

According to AudioModelling web site :

Quote
The SWAM engine combines concepts of Physical Modeling and Behavioral Modeling with the Multi-Vector/Phase-Synchronous Sample-Morphing technique.

The samples are the raw material which is heavily transformed. But the role of physical modelling is not clear.

I suppose there are 3 levels : pure sampling, modified samples, pure modelling (physical modelling or not). I mean by physical modelling, the description of the physical instrument in order to compute the sound, not the description of key characteristics of the sound.

A Kontakt library is pure sampling, but the use of script makes them more difficult to classify. Ivory has some resonance modelling like Clavinova (VRM), then it is quite near pure sampling, but with a bit of modelling, SWAM is Modified samples, Pianoteq is pure modelling, but I don’t think it is really a physical modelling. VL1 is a physical modelling : Yamaha implemented a wave guide simulation which is a finite elements simulation of a wind instrument.

Last edited by Frédéric L; 10/08/20 02:49 PM.

http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
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Thanks for the clarification Frederic.

Abdol, so you are saying a hybrid of sampling and modeling is the answer?


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070 for jazz, classical, world, rock tracks Albums on Bandcamp: https://michaelalevy.bandcamp.com/music
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
Originally Posted by Abdol
They use samples as the main source for the sound and I don't think SWAM produces the tones using physical modeling.

According to AudioModelling web site :

Quote
The SWAM engine combines concepts of Physical Modeling and Behavioral Modeling with the Multi-Vector/Phase-Synchronous Sample-Morphing technique.

The samples are the raw material which is heavily transformed. But the role of physical modelling is not clear.

I suppose there are 3 levels : pure sampling, modified samples, pure modelling (physical modelling or not). I mean by physical modelling, the description of the physical instrument in order to compute the sound, not the description of key characteristics of the sound.

A Kontakt library is pure sampling, but the use of script makes them more difficult to classify. Ivory has some resonance modelling like Clavinova (VRM), then it is quite near pure sampling, but with a bit of modelling, SWAM is Modified samples, Pianoteq is pure modelling, but I don’t think it is really a physical modelling. VL1 is a physical modelling : Yamaha implemented a wave guide simulation which is a finite elements simulation of a wind instrument.


Swam can be loaded on Kontakt. https://audiomodeling.com/technology/

I guess it's purely sample based with some tricks. Nothing rocket-science like VL1 and MOSS.

They have addressed few issues with sample based sytnehsis. Portamento function requires smooth transition between two samples. Samples of the origina and destination notes have different ADSR components thus it is hard to alight them and the resulting transition from these algorithms wont sound smooth. They probably alight these phase of these elements and do some morphinig tricks so the portamento sounds smooth. They also have some other components to transition between let's say sax grawl and sax normal sound.

Quote
Thanks for the clarification Frederic.

Abdol, so you are saying a hybrid of sampling and modeling is the answer?


I don't know! May be AI can produce fake sax samples at one point. Then who needs physical modeling stuff? You just let the network learn the representation of a sax and then you can sample the representation space to come up with some trippy souds...

Mathematical modeling will never get old though. It's the coolest thing you can ever work with.


When I was working with samples I stumbled upon this:

https://vi-control.net/community/threads/why-don%E2%80%99t-more-companies-phase-lock-their-samples.37353/

May be this is sth similar to what SWAM is doing.

Last edited by Abdol; 10/08/20 04:28 PM.

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In the early 1960s there was much ballyhoo over artificial intelligence.

Work was done. The CS people working on it said that they just needed 10x more computing power. Then they could make marvels!
In time they got that.

Then more work was done. And the CS people working on it said that they just needed 10x more computing power. Then they could make marvels!
In time they got that.

Then more work was done. And the CS people working on it said that they just needed 10x more computing power. Then they could make marvels!
In time they got that.

Then more work was done. And the CS people working on it said that they just needed 10x more computing power. Then they could make marvels!
In time they got that.

It took more than fifty years to make anything useful from artificial intelligence.
So I'm not holding my breath over piano modeling.

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I can read :

Quote
. Differently from SWAM-W, sound in SWAM-B virtual instruments is generated by pure Physical Modeling, so there are no samples at all.

Then there no one SWAM synthesis...


http://www.sinerj.org/
http://humeur-synthe.sinerj.org/
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I don't Think Roland Sound engine is necessary worse than Kawai or Yamaha , they both have the advantage of having samples of their top acoustic pianos so the default sound will sound better for most people, however, The modelled sound have its own advantage and flexibility and both both Kawai and Yamaha are using modelling to some extent.

Last edited by JackQ89; 10/09/20 03:49 AM.

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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I can read :

Quote
. Differently from SWAM-W, sound in SWAM-B virtual instruments is generated by pure Physical Modeling, so there are no samples at all.

Then there no one SWAM synthesis...

I have played the 3 saxes and the clarinets on my WX5. SWAM is the best in this category. I haven't tried the trumpet/trombone but VL1 (and peobably MOSS) also has a really nice trumpet sound! So I guess it is easier to model!

Originally Posted by JackQ89
I don't Think Roland Sound engine is necessary worse than Kawai or Yamaha , they both have the advantage of having samples of their top acoustic pianos so the default sound will sound better for most people, however, The modelled sound have its own advantage and flexibility and both both Kawai and Yamaha are using modelling to some extent.

SWAM's emulation sounds the best in its category! Roland's emulation sounds synthetic.


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I just downloaded Pianoteq to compare it to my piano's builtin sampled sound (Korg C1 Air). Granted I used a pair of good quality amplifiers and no monitors.

I didn't notice much difference to be honest that warrants such a hot debate. There's a definite difference in the sustain sound though, not so much the longevity but the very subtle 'wah-wah' effect of looping. Other than that, it's almost a tie imo.

(I'm excluding the sympathetic resonance and polyphony limit as far as my piano is concerned).

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It’s interesting that SWAM does not offer a piano vst. The excitement over their instruments i has to do with the player input of parameters that lend authenticity to the sound. Those parameters don’t exist in a piano, so maybe it is not of interest to them.


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070 for jazz, classical, world, rock tracks Albums on Bandcamp: https://michaelalevy.bandcamp.com/music
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