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Originally Posted by CyberGene
These people haven’t chosen their cost of labor. It’s a result of the fact they have a government that exploits an environment of poverty.

So it’s not that simple IMO.

Cost of living has a high correlation with cost of labor, more so than any government "exploitation".

There's rarely any moral high ground to be had with anything related to politics, or capitalism for that matter.

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People choose their government. If I have nothing against an ordinary representatives of a country, it does not mean I can't boycott their country if their government behaves inappropriately. If they struggle because of this - this is their problem, not mine.


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The brand and the specific product matter to me, not the country.


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If I can avoid it I will not buy goods made in China. But as mentioned earlier that can't always be accomplished.

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For me it only matters in some cases. I don't think there's anything inferior to Chinese manufacturing. Rather, I think they represent the largest manufacturing base, and in doing so, they have the capability to product the highest quality of anywhere (e.g., Apple products), and also extremely low quality (throwaway export tchotchkes), depending on the needs of the client.

If I'm buying a BMW, I'll probably want one produced in Germany rather than South Africa. And if I'm buying a Yamaha acoustic grand, I'll probably opt for a model built in Japan versus Indonesia. But for most consumer goods, it's ultimately the quality of the product that matters.


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Originally Posted by Seabass
If I can avoid it I will not buy goods made in China. But as mentioned earlier that can't always be accomplished.
What did China do to you?

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Seabass
If I can avoid it I will not buy goods made in China. But as mentioned earlier that can't always be accomplished.
What did China do to you?

1st hand experience in the low quality items that I have purchased mainly, including ones with a premium price tag. Anything from cell phones to watches, tv's, and monitors. I've been going over some of the older items that I have which still work and to my surprise they've been manufactured in either Japan, Germany, Spain, or the USA. There is a certain Chinese company that I do swear by and recommend to others not just for their quality but also customer service and that is Anker. When it comes to products such as musical instruments I tend to prefer to purchase a brand that has a history or since that's always a nice talking point if I ever need one. There are also other reasons which I'm not going to delve into since those discussions are not on the topic of digital instruments in any way.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
If by not purchasing a product I discriminate against people, doesn’t that mean I discriminate against local manufacturers when I avoid their products by favoring Chinese goods?

That's not discriminating against anyone. Your buying decision is based on the product.

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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by CyberGene
If by not purchasing a product I discriminate against people, doesn’t that mean I discriminate against local manufacturers when I avoid their products by favoring Chinese goods?

That's not discriminating against anyone. Your buying decision is based on the product.
Do you choose based solely on quality, ignoring the price? If no, do you agree that price wouldn’t be that low if it wasn’t for the odd mix of communism and capitalism?


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Do you choose based solely on quality, ignoring the price? If no, do you agree that price wouldn’t be that low if it wasn’t for the odd mix of communism and capitalism?

odd mix? Forget China then.

What about Indonesia? Why does Indonesia have cheap labor?
Or for that matter, why are Korean Pianos like Samick and Young Chang cheap?

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I’m not aware of many Indonesian made products besides my Yamaha. Pianos are just an exception.


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Having Japanese made Yamahas and Kawais that are much cheaper than comparable European pianos clearly shows pianos are usually an overpriced product, often because it involves manual labor which is expected for products of luxury. So pianos are an exception.

There are always poor countries with cheap labor. Bulgaria is one of them too. But we don’t have a strong economy. It’s actually getting stronger and the standards of life are improving as is the cost of labor. That’s the natural way.

And then you have China which is a monster economy. Yet people are still poor. That’s what I’m trying to say.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by CyberGene
If by not purchasing a product I discriminate against people, doesn’t that mean I discriminate against local manufacturers when I avoid their products by favoring Chinese goods?

That's not discriminating against anyone. Your buying decision is based on the product.
Do you choose based solely on quality, ignoring the price? If no, do you agree that price wouldn’t be that low if it wasn’t for the odd mix of communism and capitalism?

I choose based on quality and price.

The cost of goods made in China (although they're not always cheaper) is complicated by China's economic history over the last fifty years or so. Other countries with the same standard and cost of living also have very cheap labour by Western standards. Explosive growth with cheap labour is a feature of countries that experience rapid industrial development, and it has been this way since the start of the industrial revolution. China reminds me more of Dickensian England (with similar social issues) than a stagnant communist state.

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China also have a massive population size to distribute all that wealth. If the average income of China is the same as the average income of the United States, they would need to have 4x the amount of money.

That would be a truly monstrous economy.

China labor cost has been growing with their economy as well though. Which is part of why you do see corporations start utilizing more underdeveloped countries like Vietnam and Indonesia for their labor. That's really unrelated to any sort of government oppression. If anything, it's a government decision to gradually increase the value of the yuan that results in increased labor exchange rates.

Certainly China's government has plenty of issues, just like our government here in the US has plenty of issues, just like I'd imagine any government in the world have issues. Like I said, there's no moral high ground to be had in politics or capitalism.

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Well, I agree. It all started around whether I’m discriminating against people by boycotting Chinese products. Putting aside whether that has any effect whatsoever, and whether it’s possible (it’s not and I’m no more doing it), it was a valid emotional reaction that I had amid a global disaster that has a very clearly established cause. And it’s not a discrimination against people. I have Chinese friends and I like Chinese culture and have never thought of them in any different way than any other people.

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/19/20 03:50 AM.

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Originally Posted by PianoStartsAt33
I've just watched Korg LP-380 and they say it's made in Japan. Bluthners are made in Germany.
What else are the brands made not in China, Malasia etc.?


I'm a pragmatist. I test the instrumentation side-by-side and make choices based upon my own biases and perceived needs / payoffs at the time.

I have brought a Yamaha and two Kawai models, and have had good luck mechanically with all three.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, I agree. It all started around whether I’m discriminating against people by boycotting Chinese products. Putting aside whether that has any effect whatsoever, and whether it’s possible (it’s not and I’m no more doing it), it was a valid emotional reaction that I had amid a global disaster that has a very clearly established cause. And it’s not a discrimination against people. I have Chinese friends and I like Chinese culture and have never thought of them in any different way than any other people.

I mentioned discrimination first, but I was just answering the OP. I wasn't referring to you at all.

My point was simply that I don't want to boycott a company or its workers because they happen to be based in a country that is governed in a way that I don't like. There have been exceptions, but this is generally the case.

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^ To a large extent I tend to agree which is why I’m not boycotting Chinese products anymore. It was an emotional response on my side and not an extremely logical at that smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 09/19/20 04:53 AM.

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It's not as though we have much choice, eh?

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, I agree. It all started around whether I’m discriminating against people by boycotting Chinese products.
No CyberGene is not discriminating against any people and this is supported by his vast posting history here. Glad to have you around we will be enjoying some imported Bulgarian yogourt this evening in his name, thank you very much.

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