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Anyway I think there is a reason for the N3X line to exist. When they released N3 and N3X, they have a lot of artists endorsements from all kinds of music schools. Search on YouTube for that. However, they didn't market N1X like that.

Even if the market for the N3 line is not as big, it's showing that Yamaha is making the best and the most expensive digital piano that even conservatories like it, at least from those videos. Think about those people not browsing this forum and who does not have those knowledges about digital pianos. A lot of people don't even know the difference of grand piano actions, upright piano actions and digital piano actions, even for those who has a piano performance degree. Those endorsements really mean something to them. And Yamaha needs an expensive digital pianos with fancy cabinet, dozens of speakers and amps, and the best actions to show that they are the "big brother" of the industry. Just like what Casio is doing for their GP lines. I don't know how many people are purchasing Casio GPs but they are really "marketing" that series very hard.

Last edited by Harpuia; 08/10/20 10:31 PM.

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Originally Posted by rmnd
@pianoguy999. My suggestion would be to think a bit different. If you would be the CEO of Yamaha, where would you invest & innovate first? And what would the market want? Basically every feature added costs money in innovation, testing, support, etc.

If I would guess, it would be that:
1) They don't sell that many N3X's (who's actually buying these things? High net worth individuals in smaller appartments? It still takes more space compared to an N1X?)
2) The public that buys N3X's won't buy many more or less N3X's if they would add Bluetooth, more voices, etc.
3) Competition on N3X is low.
4) They cannot increase pricing to recuperate more innovation costs.
5) Return on investment on Clavinova's is MUCH higher due to: way larger market, very competitive market with Kawai, Roland and Casio all offering multiple models in the same price range, more buyers who take features into account, etc, etc
6) Even large companies like Yamaha have limited resources and R&D departments - which need to invest where it'll make the biggest impact for the organization
To be honest, I'm surprised that something that an N3X actually exists next to their silent grands & piano's. Personally I don't see myself ever buying a digital piano for 18k EUR.

So, where would you invest as CEO?

This is not about thinking different. I am not the CEO. I am the buyer and the consumer. What the CEO wants in a publicly traded company is higher margins and returns for investors. You think consumers like it when Apple computers makes it so their computers aren't ungradeable? Should they all start being ok with their disposable computers because it was a good business decision adn it was good for the shareholders? NO. Screw that. I'm going to keep on thinking like a consumer, a musician, and somebody who wants to get what they pay for. It's quite shocking to me that people are ok with good business decisions at the expense of a better product at a fair price.

If I was CEO of Yamaha, I would do exactly what they are doing--taking advantage of their unique market position and not giving away all of their tech in one product, while at the same time charging a premium price and keeping costs down by putting in old tech. But again, this is from a CEOs standpoint, not the consumer's. Not from the musician's standpoint who wants the best tool in all of its aspects. By the way 18k EUR is not that much for a real instrument. Maybe it is counter intuitive, but perhaps their market would be bigger if they eliminated the gimmicks and made it pro-grade.

- Where would I innovate first? While I think they innovated in the right place first (the hybrid technology and the spatial acoustic sampling), they already have a lot of other tech that it is missing, like good audio interfacing, bluetooth, touchscreen, and probably better EP sounds too. Yes, testing and integrating costs money but holy [censored] this digital piano has a $22k USD MSRP! This is like selling a luxury BMW without leather seats or floor mats, and neither is available for an upgrade.

- You are definitely right about them not selling more if they add a feature or two, but who cares? See comment above about such an expensive piano. It feels wrong and unfair just because they have the whole market. This is my whole point and my whole gripe. As a business, sure, it's great. For the consumer, at least for the real musician consumer, we get hosed, and since people don't push back there is no impetus to change. If the market is for the rich person who never plays piano, or that only plays the CFX, sure, fine, but that's my whole gripe from somebody who wants a real tool not a partial tool.

- You are also right about it being surprising that an N3X actually exists, but it's only natural that since they sell a lot of DPs, there is a swath of the population that want a DP that actually sounds and feels like a real piano.

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Originally Posted by Harpuia
Anyway I think there is a reason for the N3X line to exist. When they released N3 and N3X, they have a lot of artists endorsements from all kinds of music schools. Search on YouTube for that. However, they didn't market N1X like that.

Even if the market for the N3 line is not as big, it's showing that Yamaha is making the best and the most expensive digital piano that even conservatories like it, at least from those videos. Think about those people not browsing this forum and who does not have those knowledges about digital pianos. A lot of people don't even know the difference of grand piano actions, upright piano actions and digital piano actions, even for those who has a piano performance degree. Those endorsements really mean something to them. And Yamaha needs an expensive digital pianos with fancy cabinet, dozens of speakers and amps, and the best actions to show that they are the "big brother" of the industry. Just like what Casio is doing for their GP lines. I don't know how many people are purchasing Casio GPs but they are really "marketing" that series very hard.

LOL if you don't know the difference between and grand and an upright action and you have a piano performance degree, you should get your degree taken away from you.

I think you're right about the "big brother" of the industry sort of idea. Gives them clout.

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Originally Posted by pianoguy999
Originally Posted by EssBrace
Originally Posted by pianoguy999
Originally Posted by joemama42O
P-45 has AWM Sampling which is very old and outdated, CFX Sampling and Spatial Acoustic Sampling is much newer

I referred to the P-45 because of the outdated "bright grand," "pop grand," and electric pianos samples, not the the CFX. Whether or not those instruments are AWM or not, who cares? Whatever type of sampling you want to call them, they are horribly outdated and don't belong on such an expensive instrument.

You're just spreading misinformation. There are no voices in common between the N3X and the P45.
Originally Posted by Zanoni
Originally Posted by EssBrace
You're just spreading misinformation. There are no voices in common between the N3X and the P45.

+1

Nobody said that the samples are the same exact samples, what I'm saying is that the samples are bad, just like on a P-45. I never meant to say "they're using the same samples as in the 80s."

Well, you said this:

"The headphone sound quality on everything but the CFX are a JOKE and are the same sounds you get out of a $50 P-45 craigslist buy."

How else is one to interpret this other than to believe you are saying they are the SAME?

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@Ess-meister ... Keep calm .......

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Originally Posted by Pete14
Yes, silence is of essence; and as Miles once said:

“The silence between the notes is where it’s at”.


Yamaha simply wants to give us a moment to contemplate upon our lives; hence, the silence. If for a nanosecond, I feel a sense of inner peace when the silent samples are triggered; and I say to myself, you’re right, Miles, that’s where it’s at! grin

Interesting.

One of the songs I'm working on in the Duane Shinn Praise and Gospel course revolves around the silence between the notes. Duane calls it "white noise" and we have to learn how to use it musically. The song is actually called Precious Memories and it's about reflection.

I wonder if the note-off samples on my N1X will help make the song sound better. smile

God Bless,
David


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I've owned my N3X for a little over a year. I have read most of the critiques of the instrument and can understand where everybody is coming from. When I purchased it, I was under no delusions I was buying anything other than a piano replacement given my living room's space limitations. Do I wish it had more toys, especially after playing extensively with my father's feature-rich CSP-150? Absolutely. But it seems to me that would go against what I believe was this piano's intended purpose.

Short version: I'm still quite happy with my purchase and would do it again. It looks great, sounds great, and for ME, was still the better choice over a tinny 5' acoustic baby grand. That said, very few things are perfect. I have one "moderate-to-major" complaint and three minor ones:

MAJOR COMPLAINT:
I don't know if it's only to my ears, but if the volume is all the way up, there's an unpleasant piercing quality to the sound when playing loudly, which is uncomfortable and distracting. This is easily side-stepped by bringing the volume down some, but I feel like I'm compromising the intended fullness of the sound of the instrument when doing so. Fellow owners: am I the only one?

MINOR COMPLAINT #1:
I agree the slide-out controls suck, and it sucks that my previous settings don't carry over when I reboot the piano. I don't mind relying on my iPad to tweak different things, though I wish connecting to an iPad was as seamless as on my father's CSP-150.

MINOR COMPLAINT #2:
No built-in Bluetooth for audio. Seriously? Such a careless omission.

MINOR COMPLAINT #3:
No small stick for having the piano lid open in the low position. No idea why they deleted this from the N3.

Last edited by vara411; 08/12/20 02:51 PM.

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Originally Posted by vara411
I've owned my N3X for a little over a year. I have read most of the critiques of the instrument and can understand where everybody is coming from. When I purchased it, I was under no delusions I was buying anything other than a piano replacement given my living room's space limitations. Do I wish it had more toys, especially after playing extensively with my father's feature-rich CSP-150? Absolutely. But it seems to me that would go against what I believe was this piano's intended purpose.

Short version: I'm still quite happy with my purchase and would do it again. It looks great, sounds great, and for ME, was still the better choice over a tinny 5' acoustic baby grand. That said, very few things are perfect. I have one "moderate-to-major" complaint and three minor ones:

MAJOR COMPLAINT:
I don't know if it's only to my ears, but if the volume is all the way up, there's an unpleasant piercing quality to the sound when playing loudly, which is uncomfortable and distracting. This is easily side-stepped by bringing the volume down some, but I feel like I'm compromising the intended fullness of the sound of the instrument when doing so. Fellow owners: am I the only one?

MINOR COMPLAINT #1:
I agree the slide-out controls suck, and it sucks that my previous settings don't carry over when I reboot the piano. I don't mind relying on my iPad to tweak different things, though I wish connecting to an iPad was as seamless as on my father's CSP-150.

MINOR COMPLAINT #2:
No built-in Bluetooth for audio. Seriously? Such a careless omission.

MINOR COMPLAINT #3:
No small stick for having the piano lid open in the low position. No idea why they deleted this from the N3.

Try lowering the volume down to 2-3 o'clock and then increase the touch sensitivity from 2 to 1. This is what I'm always doing when playing with speakers and I like that setting.


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No, Sir!

If I paid for the full pie, I’m not accepting 2/3 of it. I want the whole pie!

So yes, crank that MOFO all the way up, and if it squeals, crank it some more!

How dare you, Yamaha! To give me only a taste of fullness but then leave me starving for more!

Sometimes I wonder why, why do I keep my hopes up?
For it seems like Yamaha and Kawai (DG30) enjoy stepping all over me! laugh

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I own the N3, not the N3X, but I have no piercing sound problem playing at full volume. I suspect it may be an issue with the specific room acoustic in your location. Mine is in a carpeted room with only 9 foot ceiling, so perhaps the carpet and the lower ceiling keeps the sound more enclosed and subdued. Just a guess. But it's more likely that it is a room acoustic issue for your N3X because if it's a consistent issue across all N3X, I'm sure Yamaha would have addressed it. But then another consideration is that my N3 is based on the CFIIIS sample, while the N3X is based on the CFX sample, so perhaps we're talking apple and oranges here because I hear that the CFX is brighter than the CFIIIS.

I found that my touch sensitivity setting of "1" is preserved upon a power cycle. I wish the TRS setting is preserved but unfortunately it's not.

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To N3/N3X owners - is it normal/expected to set the volume to full? On my piano (and many others I've tried), "realistic" playing volume is usually between 50-75%, and above that I'm not too surprised that things can get a bit uneven/shrill/boomy, but of course the N3 isn't the average digital piano, especially in the amplification/speaker dept.


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Yeah, really. Who turns it up to 10? On a piano? On a radio? On a TV? Never.

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Originally Posted by Gombessa
To N3/N3X owners - is it normal/expected to set the volume to full? On my piano (and many others I've tried), "realistic" playing volume is usually between 50-75%, and above that I'm not too surprised that things can get a bit uneven/shrill/boomy, but of course the N3 isn't the average digital piano, especially in the amplification/speaker dept.

I had an N3. With the volume max'd out it was louder than a small to medium sized grand piano. I'd say 75% is as loud as you'd want it in a typical home environment.

I also had issues with an insistent, penetrating quality to the sound on certain notes but my (smallish) room had a vaulted ceiling at the time and I suspected the ceiling was firing certain frequencies back at me, in some cases to a pretty unpleasant degree. If I moved the piano around (sometimes by just a few inches) the piercing quality would shift pitch to certain other notes. Just before I sold the N3 I played it in another space and there were no issues at all so I believe it was an acoustic issue with reflections in the room.

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In my old house with vaulted 15 foot ceiling, no carpet (half laminated wood and half tile flooring) in my great room, which includes the kitchen area, dining area, pool table area/living room, the previous N3 I owned was situated smack in the middle of this great room, and I usually set the N3 at 75-80% volume and it'd be loud enough, and I'd notice reverberation from the room.

In my newer/smaller home, my (newer) N3 sits in the corner of the great room (TV room open to kitchen and dining room) fully carpeted with 9 foot ceiling, next to a (fake) Christmas tree (yep, still up since last Christmas), and also next to a 120" projection screen for a UST projector, as well as a 5-seat fabric couch, all of which I think would act as big sound volume absorbers, I was surprised to find that I can play at 100% volume and the N3 would still sound nice and full but not overly too loud and there's hardly any room reverberation.

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Very interesting, thanks. Sounds like N3/N3X is set such that 100% is actually a usable setting, and not just some crazy overdriven volume that does nobody any good (well, other than maybe a piercing sound/quality here or there). If I set my NV-10 to 100%, I think my ears would blow out.


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Yes, I definitely think that the N3 100% setting is usable. Even in my old home with my previous N3 with vaulted ceiling and much less sound absorption materials around, I did play at 100% volume from time to time and it was still quite OK acoustically

I would think that Yamaha would have wanted to design the N3/N3X at full volume being equivalent to the natural loudness of a 9ft CFIIIS grand piano. After all, that's what they aspired to do in the first place, right?

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I think it probably also depends on how big your room is. The room I have, I usually have my N3x at about 50%, maybe a tad higher and that is more than loud enough for me

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Originally Posted by Harpuia
Try lowering the volume down to 2-3 o'clock and then increase the touch sensitivity from 2 to 1. This is what I'm always doing when playing with speakers and I like that setting.

Thanks I'll try that! Glad to hear that setting stays even when I reboot the piano. My living room is small but about 12 feet high. We haven't put in an area rug and I wonder if that's why I'm getting the shrill effect. I'll look into all the mentioned changes and report back with my impressions.


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I ought to mention that it's not like I need to turn up 100% on the speakers for it to be loud enough for me. It can sound just fine and loud enough at 70%. I'm just saying that even at full 100% volume, I don't experience artifacts on my N3 that the others hear on theirs.

My brother has a mid size acoustic grand and he has to put a large area rug under his tile flooring and hang sound absorbing (but decoratively padded) canvases on his walls in the piano room to tame its volume.

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I would expect Yamaha to make an N3X 2.0 move only when Kawai launches an "NV20". Before that they have really no competition for that kind of high-end model.
I find the action of the nv10 much better than any Avant Grand, but once you look at the back of the nv10 with that ugly panel that's when you start to see the value of a fancy cabinet.


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