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Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by Wes Lachot
Originally Posted by Visalia
Originally Posted by emenelton
min6 allows the 1st mode of the ascending melodic minor scale for the melody to be used
If you don't know of any examples of min 6 chords in popular music that's okay...
Hey dude, check out the John Lennon tune "Jealous Guy" from his album "Imagine". At 0:29 seconds, right after the line "And my heart was beating fast", where the band is sitting on the relative minor (VI) of the key, he adds a very prominent 6 to the minor chord, giving it just the sort of "angst" that the lyric called for. Only the most sophisticated songwriters tend to use colors like this as sparingly and artfully as those guys did. Also check out "Hey Bulldog" for the classic James Bond minor 6 sound.

I'm sure the folks on the forum here could come up with plenty of additional examples. I just mentioned The Beatles because that was the obvious place to start.

I always went to min-maj when a min-6 was noted, I didn’t know about it’s other common use.

Thanks
emenelton,

One way to think of the "Jealous Guy" minor 6 chord is in terms of modal interchange. The "regular" mode for the relative minor is Aeolean, but the addition of the (major) 6 to the chord changes the mode from Aeolean to Dorian. That 6 note then becomes a temporary leading tone, leading to the V chord. This exact progression was used by many classical composers. It's sort of a standard way of establishing and briefly 'tonicizing' the V chord. The cool thing is that the addition of the minor 6 note makes a standard II-V unnecessary. The VI chord can resolve directly down a whole step to the V chord.

Try it for yourself with any standard II-V. For example, in the key of C, first resolve a D-7 chord to a G7 chord to a C chord. Then resolve a D-7 chord to a D-6 chord to a C chord. It's the same sound, just a different bass note. In this simple case the final target chord was the tonic of the key, so no non-diatonic notes are involved. In "Jealous Guy" the target chord is the V, so there is a non-diatonic note involved--the 6 on the minor 6 chord. That's what perks up the ear.

Another way of saying this is that the minor 6 chord "stands in" for the secondary dominant (V of V) normally heard in this progression.

If all of this sounds like just a lot of hot air to anyone, I encourage you just to listen to the tune. It's really cool sound.


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Wes,

I understand, good.

In B minor key; the min IV 6, E min 6, resolves to the relative major, D major?

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Originally Posted by Wes Lachot
One way to think of the "Jealous Guy" minor 6 chord is in terms of modal interchange. The "regular" mode for the relative minor is Aeolean, but the addition of the (major) 6 to the chord changes the mode from Aeolean to Dorian. That 6 note then becomes a temporary leading tone, leading to the V chord. This exact progression was used by many classical composers. It's sort of a standard way of establishing and briefly 'tonicizing' the V chord. The cool thing is that the addition of the minor 6 note makes a standard II-V unnecessary. The VI chord can resolve directly down a whole step to the V chord.

Try it for yourself with any standard II-V. For example, in the key of C, first resolve a D-7 chord to a G7 chord to a C chord. Then resolve a D-7 chord to a D-6 chord to a C chord. It's the same sound, just a different bass note. In this simple case the final target chord was the tonic of the key, so no non-diatonic notes are involved. In "Jealous Guy" the target chord is the V, so there is a non-diatonic note involved--the 6 on the minor 6 chord. That's what perks up the ear.

Another way of saying this is that the minor 6 chord "stands in" for the secondary dominant (V of V) normally heard in this progression.

If all of this sounds like just a lot of hot air to anyone, I encourage you just to listen to the tune. It's really cool sound.


I understood vi mi 6 resolving to the V but wanted to ask about the min iv 6, in the relative minor and if it resolved directly to the relative maj tonic, a step below.

Thanks!.

Last edited by emenelton; 08/10/20 02:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by MrShed
That could be the song by Fall Out Boy for all I know. It's normal to mention the artist.isten to versions of those songs Alone Together and Yesterdays (not the Beatles song Yesterday.
Then who? There's probably dozens of songs out there with similar names. It would be normal to mention the artist. Can you stop being petty and just tell me. Is this the song?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPfQt4EsHPk

As for 'Alone Together', that could the song by Fall Out Boy for all I know! Is it the one by Ella Fitzgerald??
Originally Posted by MrShed
A min6 is the basic chord and you add whatever other colors you want like a 9th. The typical scale used for min6 is (Jazz) Melodic Minor and that has a major7th so that voicing is coming from the scale.
Yes I should have made it more clear that I knew what the chord was and that the thread was intended for the purposes of ear training only.

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Originally Posted by Nahum
Unlike classical harmony, chords symbols in jazz lends itself to interpretation in performance. This means that in each chord, some pitches can be omitted and others added , according to known rules (in fact, according to what sounds good). For example, in any chord you can remove the root and replace it with the ninth (second) degree. These pitches are called chord tensions .
That also allows people to waffle in such a way that they an never be wrong.

But when you call a spade a spade, a minor 6 chord contains the root, m3, 5th, and major 6 intervals. They're the four notes to the chord. Of course you can add and omit whatever you want, but then it's a different chord.

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Originally Posted by JazzPianoOnline
https://youtu.be/GhauLduIpsI (Dfrank himself!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ST6mV1X-Vw

I am happy to discuss further just contact me.
I'd be ever so grateful if you would point out a time stamp on either of those as to where the minor 6 chord is. It just all sounds like 'background jazz stuff'.

When jazz elements are used sparingly in pop music, they stand out more to the listener.

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Visalia: What you say about a chord that leaves out or adds in certain notes no longer being a minor 6 sounds good on the surface, but it isn't so simple in jazz. In jazz, performers take liberty with chords, but are still considered to be playing that chord.

As an example, Bill Evans and others developed a system where piano players comping in a jazz band do not play the root notes of a chord because the bass player is handling that. But the bass player may not actually play the root. Yet, everyone considers the band to be playing a certain chord, even if no one actually plays the root. The feeling of that chord will be implied. If the performers stray too far, it will not sound right because the chord will not be implied by what is being played. So in theory you are correct; a chord has certain notes. But in performance in jazz, you can add and subtract notes and still be considered to be playing that chord. And not randomly, I'd add. There is almost 100 years of jazz tradition that shapes what can and cannot be done.

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Originally Posted by emenelton
Originally Posted by Wes Lachot
One way to think of the "Jealous Guy" minor 6 chord is in terms of modal interchange. The "regular" mode for the relative minor is Aeolean, but the addition of the (major) 6 to the chord changes the mode from Aeolean to Dorian. That 6 note then becomes a temporary leading tone, leading to the V chord. This exact progression was used by many classical composers. It's sort of a standard way of establishing and briefly 'tonicizing' the V chord. The cool thing is that the addition of the minor 6 note makes a standard II-V unnecessary. The VI chord can resolve directly down a whole step to the V chord.

Try it for yourself with any standard II-V. For example, in the key of C, first resolve a D-7 chord to a G7 chord to a C chord. Then resolve a D-7 chord to a D-6 chord to a C chord. It's the same sound, just a different bass note. In this simple case the final target chord was the tonic of the key, so no non-diatonic notes are involved. In "Jealous Guy" the target chord is the V, so there is a non-diatonic note involved--the 6 on the minor 6 chord. That's what perks up the ear.

Another way of saying this is that the minor 6 chord "stands in" for the secondary dominant (V of V) normally heard in this progression.

If all of this sounds like just a lot of hot air to anyone, I encourage you just to listen to the tune. It's really cool sound.


I understood vi mi 6 resolving to the V but wanted to ask about the min iv 6, in the relative minor and if it resolved directly to the relative maj tonic, a step below.

Thanks!.
emenelton: Yes, that's it exactly. A II can resolve directly to a I without going through the V, by changing the II min to a II min 6 chord. It's the same sound with simpler root motion. In fact, a II min chord can resolve directly to a I chord all by itself, which is a variation of a Plagal Cadence (normally IV to I).

We're talking about structural stuff here, what's known as Functional Harmony, which is primarily concerned with root motion and explaining vertical harmony in it's most basic form--understanding chord changes, in street terms. Melodically, however, a player often just thinks of it as all one tonality--the II, the V, the I, or for that matter even the VI or the III or whatever. It's just one continuous tonality, as long as there's no modal change on the V chord. The V chord is where the action is, where the tonality often changes from simple Mixolydian to something stranger, like maybe the symmetric diminished scale or the Altered scale (Melodic Minor scale, but starting on the 7th degree).


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Originally Posted by jjo
Visalia: What you say about a chord that leaves out or adds in certain notes no longer being a minor 6 sounds good on the surface, but it isn't so simple in jazz. In jazz, performers take liberty with chords, but are still considered to be playing that chord.

As an example, Bill Evans and others developed a system where piano players comping in a jazz band do not play the root notes of a chord because the bass player is handling that. But the bass player may not actually play the root. Yet, everyone considers the band to be playing a certain chord, even if no one actually plays the root. The feeling of that chord will be implied. If the performers stray too far, it will not sound right because the chord will not be implied by what is being played. So in theory you are correct; a chord has certain notes. But in performance in jazz, you can add and subtract notes and still be considered to be playing that chord. And not randomly, I'd add. There is almost 100 years of jazz tradition that shapes what can and cannot be done.

Very well put, jjo. I would add this:

Only in the earlier half of the classical common practice period (roughly Bach to Beethoven) it would be reasonable to say that a chord is a chord with only certain prescribed notes, or, as the OP put it "when you add or omit notes it's a different chord". This is because back then most chords were triads or 7th chords (9th chords were beginning to creep in to the sounds melodically but not yet chordally). By the late Romantic period (Brahms) the tonalities were shifting so quickly and effortlessly that the chord funtions themselves were harder to catagorize in the old system, and it would no longer be fair to say that "when you add or omit notes it's a different chord". Many of the scales and tonalities of the future jazz style were already swirling through the minds of composers who were following the symmetry of the 12-tone system to its logical conclusions or should we say extremities.

In the Figured bass notation used at the time (and still in use), instead of calling out the chord symbol with a letter, a Roman numeral was used, which is cool in a way because the structural function of the chords was right there on the paper. It focuses the mind. The only other things needed in the chord symbol were the inversion and whether or not there was a 7th added. But if you analyze the symbols you'll realize that they are mostly just telling you the root and the quality of the guide tones (major or minor 3rd; major or minor 7th), which is exactly what jazz changes tell you.

Most Real Book lead sheets don't give you too much nerdy info, just the facts, ma'am, like D-7, G7 Cmaj7. Not D-9/11, G7/9/13 and so on. Sure, they do that when it's a flat 13 or a flat 9, but that's a different tonality and needs to be pointed out. It's assumed that the player sees D-7 and knows they can voice it with a 9 sub for 1, or a 13 sub for 5, just the guide tones and an 11, or whatever the case may be. The essential notes are the guide tones and the root (which the bass player may be handling), just like the guide tones were really all the pianist needed to know 200 years ago.

I think one reason Bill Evans always tended to add tensions like 9s and 13s to to the guide tones (3rd and 7th) in his basic II-V left hand voicings was this: With the fast moving tonality shifts of jazz, especially on dominant 7th chords, the ear needs more info than just the guide tones to quickly establish the tonality, for the player themselves and also for the listener. By adding the 9 to the II chord of the II-V, you are establishing that it's not Phrygian mode--you are not on the III chord. (Sometimes Bill will add the 9 anyway on the III chord but that's another story.) By adding the natural 9 and 13 to the V chord the ear is informed that the mode is Mixolydian or Lydian Dominant, and not one of the darker modes borrowed from the parallel Minor and so on.

So my take on the OP's assertion is that it depends. If the added tensions are there in the chord symbol just to confirm what the tonality would have been anyway, like D-9, G13, Cmaj7, then no, those new symbols don't make it a "different chord" and the statement "when you add or omit notes it's a different chord" falls apart. But if, in the key of C major, the chart read D-7, Gb13, Cmaj 7, then the OP's assertion holds true, because now we have a different sounding tonality decribed by the added symbols.


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Originally Posted by Visalia
That also allows people to waffle in such a way that they an never be wrong.

But when you call a spade a spade, a minor 6 chord contains the root, m3, 5th, and major 6 intervals. They're the four notes to the chord. Of course you can add and omit whatever you want, but then it's a different chord.
In the course " Line Writing ", which was part of Berklee's curriculum, there was a definition: "A chord may sound different from marked , but not too much."

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Originally Posted by Wes Lachot
Originally Posted by Visalia
Originally Posted by emenelton
min6 allows the 1st mode of the ascending melodic minor scale for the melody to be used
If you don't know of any examples of min 6 chords in popular music that's okay...
Hey dude, check out the John Lennon tune "Jealous Guy" from his album "Imagine". At 0:29 seconds, right after the line "And my heart was beating fast", where the band is sitting on the relative minor (VI) of the key, he adds a very prominent 6 to the minor chord, giving it just the sort of "angst" that the lyric called for.
Thanks. That's a great example.

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My apologies, it's the second chord in that Sinatra video (in my original post) that is a minor 6 chord, not the first chord.

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Originally Posted by emenelton
You have a number of good people and even some heavy hitters trying to help you. You actually seem, especially with your ‘what’s the Real Book’ question like you’re trolling the forum.
Why? It's a fair question. The same guy referred to the real book also referred two relatively unknown songs without mentioning the artists. I still don't know if the 's' in "Yesterdays" is a typo or not!

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It's NOT a typo.
Yesterdays is a Jerome Kern song, which has been recorded dozens, maybe even hundreds of times.
You could make the effort to look it up, then you could pick an artist, and then listen to that recording. Does everything have to be spoon fed to you?

That 'guy' is Dave Frank, a professional Jazz Pianist and teacher.


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Originally Posted by Visalia
Why? It's a fair question. The same guy referred to the real book also referred two relatively unknown songs without mentioning the artists. I still don't know if the 's' in "Yesterdays" is a typo or not!
This is a somewhat childish attitude: you copy "Yesterdays" and pastes in Google :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yesterdays_(1933_song)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d9NHPSUDQA


Every modern interested person will start with this.

Last edited by Nahum; 08/14/20 05:38 AM.
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Originally Posted by Visalia
My apologies, it's the second chord in that Sinatra video (in my original post) that is a minor 6 chord, not the first chord.

I have the lyrics with sinatra’s chords next to the Real Book version of Ipanema.

It’s nice to hear how Jobim uses his palette over the same bass line as the Real Book. The second chord in the Real Book is a dom7 on the second degree of the key; Jobim uses the min6th from the same 2nd degree


btw I was wrong what I surmised toward you, you proved that; sorry.

we are all on a journey learning this stuff.

you know what they say - a little knowledge ca be a dangerous thing -

I was also guilty of extrapolating the few things I knew and applying that ‘into the weeds’

This is a good thread - dig in!

Thanks

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Ramblings of a simpleton:

When you see m6, think m7b5 a minor 3rd down - C-6 (you can think A-7b5 for voicings, improv, etc.) Then you can reverse concept, see m7b5 and think m6.

Check McCoy's intro to Autumn Leaves. Also, Miles/Cannonball Something Else's Autumn Leaves

You can also think about m6 when using ascending from minor triad (5, #5, 6)

Nahum, DFjazz are the ones to listen to.

Last edited by 36251; 08/14/20 02:28 PM.

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