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Let's review the conversation:

1) cafree's taste

Originally Posted by caffree
I see. That's interesting. I spoke with a Chicago dealer a couple weeks ago and he offered a new Grotrian Concertino for $25,000 (almost 50% off), and I would have jumped at it since I absolutely love the Concertino. It's good to know that I can (hopefully) still find these deals in the future :P

A manifestation of an acquired taste in pianos.


2) My point:

Originally Posted by Fluxo
Hi, caffree.

A BRAND NEW (??!) Grotrian Concertino - a direct competitor for the C. Bechstein Concert 8 - for ONLY
U$ 25,000 is a true steal!!


A very simple and plain observation (and, by no means, yet a recommendation). We all here might agree, generally speaking, that godd stuff for a cheaper price is always better than the exactly same stuff for a price 60% higher.

3) cafree's response:

Originally Posted by caffree
I know I know!!!!! Oh.....ahhh...... I played on one Grotrian Concertino at Beethoven's Piano (NYC) maybe a couple of years ago and it was an amazing experience. I don't believe I've heard any upright that's left as much of an impression on me as that one. Budget aside, I don't have the guts to buy a piano that I haven't seen in person, even if it's a brand-new Grotrian. Is that unnecessary concern? (just asking this for the sake of learning)

Again, carefree expresses his taste for a piano that has given him such "an amazing experice". So, pointing to the beauty of the tone of Grotrians would be merely a reinforcement a preference already existent, noted in his first post above.

4) Now, my response to cafree's post (3), that now, yes, is a recommendation:

I totally agree with you, for nobody should buy a piano without first playing and worshiping it.


Excuse-me, but when did I said to do it differently? It is easy to recall my lattest posts in another recent thread (on Petrof pianos), where my suggestion is exactly this, something reassured to exausthion over here: try it and love it, before you make any commitment.

So, in the end, my point ("recommendation") is:

a) if you love as much the Grotrian Concertino as you say you do;
b) if you make up your mind on the opportunity of acquiring an excellent piano, suited to your best expectations;
c) if money is a concern but nothing that would prevent you from buying it;
d) if you manage to travel and try, and have it checked, and love the piano offered;
c) if you manage to set a good deal with the seller

so,

I think it would be a very good business if you buy it. If it was me in you position, I would do it!


For the record, I have never played a Concertino, but if is near the quality of sound of my Concert 8, it must be a helluva piano. But I actually played a Concert royal Grotrian 2 years ago. It was only once, it is an old instrument, and it was not in a very good shape. So, having played a Grotrian or not before has nothing to do with my remark. I was pointing to comments many members in this Forum have been making on the beauty of Grotrians tone. And for what matters, I have heard dozens of videos with Grotrian pianos, mostly grands, and they all have impacted me very positively, unlike some other high end brands.


Obviously, what we all here can do for our fellow members is to express our points of view. The decision is to them to make, ever.


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Originally Posted by caffree
I see. That's interesting. I spoke with a Chicago dealer a couple weeks ago and he offered a new Grotrian Concertino for $25,000 (almost 50% off), and I would have jumped at it since I absolutely love the Concertino. It's good to know that I can (hopefully) still find these deals in the future :P

Hands down the Grotrian Concertino is the best upright piano I've ever played. Just saying.... Still would not recommend buying one without trying it out.

Rich


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Still haven't played a Concertino, but the next two down their line sounded beautiful in situations where that should not be possible. The richness of the palette, and the diversity of registers (especially the eloquent tenor) made many things communicate very well. There are a few YouTube videos that catch this quality very well.

I have tried exactly one Concert 8 in person, in a showroom, and it was obviously very good but not memorable. Several others on video were tons better than that, however. So, chances are good that the right prep and tuning would make the Bechstein a similarly fabulous, if completely different-sounding instrument. It appears to aspire to a golden-period Strad sound, rather than one from the Guarneri family.

If I were choosing an upright blind today (and I confess that I need a lot more experience to do a good job of that), those would be two of the three that would be in the mix. If I were in a big hurry but watching funds carefully, $25k for a top Grotrian would require some discipline to say 'no' to.

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Brand new Grotrians tend to be very similar since they are so extensively checked AND prepped at the factory. Nonetheless, I would never buy something for 25K sight unseen. Or, rather, unheard in this case.

When I was buying, we had three Grotian 192s lined up on the floor so we could go back and forth among them. They all had the signature features we were looking for, but had subtle differences of tone and brightness. That was probably related to very minor tuning differences or hammer wear/hardness, and not to any fundamental (pun intended) differences in manufacturing quality. But when you are shelling out that much money it's important that you get your own psychology right. You really do want to feel good about the purchase and minimize the likelihood of even a temporary bout of buyer's remorse.

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I just became aware that Grotian offers two "lower" lines of verticals that are extremely affordable. In fact, they are so affordable that I must question if they really are of the same "quality" as the much more expensive Tier One Grotians. Specifically, I'm referring to the WG-23 ($11,198 SMP), WGS120 ($7,498 SMP) and the WGS116 ($6,798 SMP). Has anyone here hand any experience with these particular instruments? Apparently they are German built and have Renner hammers, Kluge keys and German Roslau strings.


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Originally Posted by Carey
I just became aware that Grotian offers two "lower" lines of verticals that are extremely affordable. In fact, they are so affordable that I must question if they really are of the same "quality" as the much more expensive Tier One Grotians. Specifically, I'm referring to the WG-23 ($11,198 SMP), WGS120 ($7,498 SMP) and the WGS116 ($6,798 SMP). Has anyone here hand any experience with these particular instruments? Apparently they are German built and have Renner hammers, Kluge keys and German Roslau strings.

As far as I know Grotrian makes Wilhelm line also 100% in Germany's and thwi are not cheap pianos. Rather comparative to top W. Hoffmann, better Petrofs, Yamaha U1/YUS1 (depending on market). Please be aware alsoz that in premium brand you pay a lot for those last few percents of sound and possibilities, but company DNA can be obtained much cheaper in this case.

The cheapest line is Friedrich, and I am not pretty sure whether they are also made in Germany. You can make nice sounding cheap pianos, what Schulze-Pollmann does as well in their Studio line. I have mixed opinions about current Irmler pianos... And used studio SP can be purchased for 2k euro on average from Italy.

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From the brand profile in the Piano Buyer,
“In 2018, Grotrian introduced two lines that are even more affordable: Wilhelm Grotrian and Wilhelm Grotrian Studio. These instruments combine German Grotrian designs with “global sourcing and global manufacturing,” including soundboards of lightweight Alaskan spruce. The two new lines have the same tone color, touch, and performance; the only difference between them is that the Wilhelm Grotrian Studio models come in simpler cabinet designs for the more price-conscious buyer.”

I have played the grand pianos from the sub-lines on a couple occasions, but not the verticals, if memory serves.


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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
From the brand profile in the Piano Buyer,
“In 2018, Grotrian introduced two lines that are even more affordable: Wilhelm Grotrian and Wilhelm Grotrian Studio. These instruments combine German Grotrian designs with “global sourcing and global manufacturing,” including soundboards of lightweight Alaskan spruce. The two new lines have the same tone color, touch, and performance; the only difference between them is that the Wilhelm Grotrian Studio models come in simpler cabinet designs for the more price-conscious buyer.”

I have played the grand pianos from the sub-lines on a couple occasions, but not the verticals, if memory serves.
I now see that these particular instruments appear in the Consumer Grade listings in PianoBuyer - which makes, sense, given their price-point. However, if the basic DNA of these instruments is comparable in many ways to their Tier One counterparts, perhaps they might be a very good deal.


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I though Chen from Paulson said the W Grotrian were only finished off in Germany ?

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Well the price difference between these models is really quite substantial.

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Hi everyone, just wanting to report back on my piano search. After 2-3 weeks of "hard work" smile I finally bought a piano!! I did not give up on the Grotrian--did many more searches on it, still hoping that I could find a used one within my budget. I even went on a site that lists Grotrian uprights for sale in Europe and contacted a few sellers. I checked out new and pre-owned Yamahas, played on some Kawais, a couple of pre-owned Schimmels, a Kemble, and a pre-owned Schulze Pollman. Finally, I made up my mind and bought a new Kawai K500, which I'm very happy about because it's well within our budget and it sounds beautiful. I'm a little disappointed that it's not a Yamaha, which I used to like much better than Kawai. This is an unexpected outcome and quite surprising to me. But I have to say I loved both the K300 and K500 I tried on, and I chose the K500 (which sounds slightly better) thinking that I'll keep it for a long, long time to come.

I'd like to thank you all once again for all of your input--it's wonderful to know there's a community like this one, where I can ask questions and chat to my heart's content about pianos and get quality and honest feedback. I learned a LOT from your responses, and read some very informative articles about piano tones because of your comments. You have been a tremendous help and source of support. THANK YOU. When my piano arrives, I hope to record a piece or two and share it with you. Best wishes to you all!

PS About the Grotrians, I was told by an English seller that the new Grotrians (even the most expensive line of uprights, not sure if it applies to the grand pianos as well) are now made in China, because the company was sold to China a few years ago. I was extremely sad to hear that.

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Congratulations!!! "it's well within our budget and it sounds beautiful" -- the perfect combination!!!

Wishing you much happy playing!!


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Congratulations on the K500, that's a piano I like an awful lot.

Originally Posted by caffree
PS About the Grotrians, I was told by an English seller that the new Grotrians (even the most expensive line of uprights, not sure if it applies to the grand pianos as well) are now made in China, because the company was sold to China a few years ago. I was extremely sad to hear that.

That information is absolutely incorrect with regard to their top series of pianos. Still made in Braunschweig, Germany.


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Outstanding choice!, please do upload photos when possible.

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Congrats on Your new K500!

I learned a few Things about Grotrian along the way

Look forward to the recordings


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Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Congratulations on the K500, that's a piano I like an awful lot.

Originally Posted by caffree
PS About the Grotrians, I was told by an English seller that the new Grotrians (even the most expensive line of uprights, not sure if it applies to the grand pianos as well) are now made in China, because the company was sold to China a few years ago. I was extremely sad to hear that.

That information is absolutely incorrect with regard to their top series of pianos. Still made in Braunschweig, Germany.

Just to reinforce what Terminaldegree stated. The top tier Grotrian pianos are not made in China and continue to be made in Germany. Just another example of misinformation being provided by piano sellers that then is passed on as fact.

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Originally Posted by Rich D.
Originally Posted by terminaldegree
Congratulations on the K500, that's a piano I like an awful lot.

Originally Posted by caffree
PS About the Grotrians, I was told by an English seller that the new Grotrians (even the most expensive line of uprights, not sure if it applies to the grand pianos as well) are now made in China, because the company was sold to China a few years ago. I was extremely sad to hear that.

That information is absolutely incorrect with regard to their top series of pianos. Still made in Braunschweig, Germany.

Just to reinforce what Terminaldegree stated. The top tier Grotrian pianos are not made in China and continue to be made in Germany. Just another example of misinformation being provided by piano sellers that then is passed on as fact.

Rich

Oh what a relief! That's good to know!

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I've only played two Grotrians in my life.Both were magic pianos.


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Congratulations on your Kawai K500. Kawai’s are very fine pianos and apparently that particular Kawai just sang to your heart. Pianos are so individual and our taste in sound and feel are extremely individual and it is like magic when someone finds “their own” piano, especially if it’s a brand they didn’t originally shop for.


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Don't feel bad that you chose a Kawai over a Yamaha. Many, many people have done the same. Both are outstanding instrument makers and one is definitely not clearly superior to the other. Great choice!


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