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#2990476 06/12/20 09:08 AM
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Hi

I recently read on VSL (Vienna Symphonic Library) that their Yamaha CFX sample library has 4,200 samples per key. What exactly does that mean? As there is a confusion between velocity and dynamics.

Last edited by Pianoworldstage; 06/12/20 09:11 AM.
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Velocity and dynamics are more or less interchangeable.

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So what would the 4,200 samples per key consist of?

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So the 4,200 samples would consist of a broad spectrum of mechanical characteristics including velocity, release samples, pedal, string resonance etc, based on that one note?

Last edited by Pianoworldstage; 06/12/20 11:34 AM.
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I'm just guessing at the numbers here. Lets say 100 different velocity layers, so lets divide the sample count by 100.

So we have 42 variations. How many microphones do we have?, for simplicity I'll say 7. So divide 42 by 7 and we have 6 variations still to explain.

1 variation is straight no pedals.
1 variation is sustain pedal.

There is no una-corda samples, so there are no una-corda variation and una-corda variation with sustain.

So I am missing 4 variants of what needed to be recorded with these rough back of the envelope calculations. I think there may be more mics than I plugged in, but I think CFX has less velocity layers.

But I think from these numbers you can see how they multiply together quickly to give the total. I am clearly missing a couple of things that is needed to make my numbers work for 4200.

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Nobody will disclose in details how exactly they record and how they choose which samples to include to the final product. This is their know-how.

But you miss, for example:
- samples taken for sustain separately with key depressed and with sustain pedal;
- release samples taken with various speeds of key or pedal release;
- etc., etc.

And I don't think the sample count should be just divided by mic count.
When they say 'over 4,000 samples per key and almost 20,000 samples per microphone' with system that can deliver 100+ velocity layes, it does not mean all these samples are included in the final product, or that there is same sample count for every key or for every mic.


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Thanks to all music creationists who supported this post.

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You have 7 mics in the standard edition and 17 in the full. That's going to multiply the sample count a lot.
The room mix is a further two sets of samples, but that's a different issue.

Vienna Imperial has 6 mics, but 1,200 "recorded" samples per key. I don't know how many are actually used, but it has more sample layers (100) than Synchron (70). I don't think Synchron has 70 layers for everything.

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I don't remember VSL declaring anywhere that VI has 100 velocity layers delivered in a final product. They recorded up to 100 velocities, but it does not mean all these samples are included.
Precise working they used was:
"The CEUS technology made it possible to exploit the velocity range of the MIDI protocol to an unprecedented degree. Up to 100 velocities were recorded per key and playing technique, i.e., with and without pressing the sustain pedal, and alternatively with the soft pedal down. There are simply no audible steps between the singular velocity layers, and every single key has its own authentic velocity curve. These precise recording techniques would have been impossible without Bösendorfer’s CEUS technology. No human pianist, no matter how skilled, would be able to play 100 evenly spaced velocities from pianissimo to fortissimo, not to mention playing them consistently across all playing techniques such as sustain pedal or soft pedal down."

And here is what Paul wrote in VSL forums:
"We have samples up to 100 velocities per key (using only those velocities that actually sound different.
The lower ranges and the higher ranges need less velocities than the middle range of a piano. "

For Synchron Steinway:
"The MIDI controlled system delivers more than 100 velocities and various release samples, depending on the preceding note length and various release speeds."
So all they say is they record samples at 100+ velocities, and unofficially - Paul metioned this in forums - they included "up to 70 velocity layers for each key for the D-274"


Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. (falsely attributed to Plato)
Vlad,
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