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Andymania,

The locations on the hammer are close proximations of where to adjust for the desired effects. I, and many others have always felt that needling was destructive in nature. Needling is also more suited for hard pressed hammers than cold pressed hammers. Needle down the hardness and juice up with lacquer. What makes the Todd Scott method unique, that has been discussed on this thread, is a system that can be used on both types of hammers. The Todd Scott class was not that long ago and i am on my second piano (first with new cold pressed hammers) practicing with a new system for voicing. Thanks to Toni which has lead me to using much more diluted ratios which is necessary for deeper penetration into the volume area. I should also point out that I am finding it useful to voice from the bottom up. Sustain first, volume second, and finish with the color (brightness or softness).

-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
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I explicite refered to this posting, where Toni Goldener writes about needleing.

My only question was, if he needles on the flat side:

[img]http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pianofortesupply.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F09%2FVoicing-PLiers.8.png&hash=e5d34dba774458115cb9128ec37ca435[/img]

Last edited by Andymania; 06/11/20 05:16 AM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
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Hmmm...

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excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
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I can do that. You live in Austria? Speaking German? I do.
Was nice to hear from you!😊

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I still use needles to even out the tone, of course. I think for the really last even out using very short needles is my way. The spraying method is also quite new for me and I am still experimenting with the needed care. Till now I didn’t ruin a set of hammers, only improvement are the result of this new approach. Hairspray I quitted, gives me a pingy tone too fast, and for me not predictable.
What I use now is:

The 1:2 solution for the shoulders. That gives me the sustain I want.

If the tone is too weak I use paraloid b72 solved in alcohol, 4grams per 100 ml. That gives me the punch I am looking for, also in a pp blow. The “bite “.

For color paraloid b72, 1.6 grams solved in 100 ml acetone for the middle and treble. Less penetration and longer lasting than solved in alcohol (this solution I use since a longer time). Gives bo pingy sound. Repeat if needed. Important: being patient!!
In the bass and the high treble a 2 gram paraloid b72 in 100 ml acetone is needed. Adding carefully to avoid beginning pinging if the desired color is already existing.

Sugar coating with short needles.

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That one I don’t use.

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Hi Tony. Are you only painting on the B72, or do you spray it as well?


Daily driver: Yamaha Avantgrand N1
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Originally Posted by Toni Goldener
That one I don’t use.

You still didn't answer, wether you stitch on the flat face or not! The shown tool ist only an example.

Da Du ja Deutsch sprichst: stichst Du in die flache Seite oder nicht?

Last edited by Andymania; 06/11/20 04:05 PM.

excuse my bad english, I'm not native. Corrections are always welcome!
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I'm following this thread with interest. I have used fabric softener/alcohol mixtures in the past with success, also plastic keytops in acetone.

Mr. Chernobieff, do you plan on making some kind of document that explains clearly the different mixtures, their uses and applications. Right now it seems you are still experimenting somewhat. I have bookmarked this thread, but a newcomer would have to read through it all to comprehend the different procedures.

If you have time at some point to either start a new thread with a complete original post, it would certainly be appreciated by myself and I am sure many others.

Thanks in advance,

Jean


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Ja, seitlich in den Hammerkopf. Aber nur im Notfall.

Yes, voicing from the side of the hammer. Keith Akins wrote an article about side voicing.

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5 pages into this whole discussion and I am still waiting for ONE really well prepared and well recorded concert grand documented here.

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accordeur,

Thank you for chiming in.
I am playing with the formulations right now and listening to the results. I am currently working with:
B-72 - Alcohol
2g- 1oz Erwin thick
2g - 4oz Erwin Medium
2g- 8oz Erwin Thin
2g- 160z Ultra thin
2g - 32oz (Toni's magic wand)

So far I have been using Erwin's thin the most for small change in volume. 4 hammers seem to need more to bring them up. So i am getting ready to try Erwin Medium. So far, I am thinking the Erwin thick will not be necessary or rare to use.

I have about 4 notes with plenty of volume, but the color is off from the rest (too mellow). I will at the next session be trying Toni's magic wand.


Also, I feel that the Softener solutions are too heavy and I will play with diluting them down. As a starting point i tried 1:4:1 instead of the 1:1:1, and it sure absorbs better. On cold pressed hammers with sustain drop off, a much more diluted version may work just fine. Even thinking of thinning the 1:2 as well.


I so far have been spending two week just voicing this Steinway. Mostly as a learning experience to learn a new method and at the same time take my skills to the next level. Practice, practice, practice.

Thank for your interest.

-chris

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 06/11/20 07:12 PM.

Chernobieff Piano Restorations
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Thank you.


Jean Poulin

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Update:

Getting very close now to finishing the Voicing of the Steinway Grand piano. had much success with 2g -4oz solution and the 2g - 32oz toni's solution.


I was having trouble with notes D#55, E56, F57, F#58, G59, and G#60.

56-60 just had no volume and coming down directly from the top with the 2g-8oz solution just didn't seem to affect these notes. So i decided to go with the 2g-4oz solution. Since there was no volume and the color was not bad, i decided to apply the solution from the sides at the tip of the moulding and i applied 8 drops each side. Yes i took the hammer off to apply. After two application separated by 2 hours i had volume in those notes.

This left D#55 (next to the strut)which was the most difficult and I decided to leave it last because it just had a different sound than the rest of the piano. Here is why it presented a problem. It had a too mellow sound from pp-ff. Volume wasn't the problem as a lot of power was coming from the note. I decided to try Toni's 2g-32oz right on the tip (3drops from a pipette). An hour later it was blending beautifully with the rest of the notes.

Now just one more regulation pass, clean up the hammers, tuning, and there is going to be one happy customer. I may have time to get it recorded.


Recap: Ronsen hammers always presented a problem for me because it always seemed i would get those few notes that had a "felty sound in the tone and almost nothing seemed to fix it. It turns out that its a soft spot right above the moulding and the correct mixture ( in this case 2g-4oz) applied from the side corrects it. That's a huge tip for all you Ronsen hammer fans.

-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
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I am happy you got a fine result. Was nice to have a recording.

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The last two uprights I came across for tuning had a small, thin tone and a short sustain witch is quite efficient to improve by spraying the shoulders on 9 and 3 o’clock. But how would you improve the body of the tone, how make a round fat tone out of a neaseling thin tone with the spraying technique? Is it possible?

Thanks

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I have a new diagram and i think it will answer your question. It shows the areas you work to make changes to tonal qualities. There is overlap of course, but the diagram would be of little use if drawn that way. Interesting to note, all qualities can be changed from the surface inward, except the quality at an FF blow which can only be manipulated from the side if you don't want to affect the other qualities.
-chris

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Open means harder, more power?
Can you describe open or closed, please? It more a language problem. Thanks.

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Hi Chris. Thanks for the diagram. To make sure I understand how it works:

1. PP:
a. Add fabric softer to be able to play softer
b. Add B72 if tone is too soft

2. Open/Closed:
a. Add fabric softener to reduce power
b. Add B72 to increase power

3. FF:
a. Add fabric softener to decrease loudness
b. Add B72 to increase loudness

4. Sustain:
a. Add fabric softener to increase sustain. Almost always needed on hammers that have not been treated yet.

Is this right? Please correct the parts I got wrong. Thanks for doing this!


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pp-FF:
The pp-ff is an imaginary vertical section from strike line down to the core. I play a note softly to hear pp then start playing that note harder and harder to hear the FF. I'm listening for its character throughout that dynamic range. For example the ronsens i'm working on, many notes failed this test. The FF was "felty -muted" sounding. I added B-72 (4g-4oz) from the sides to harden the area marked FF in the diagram. On hard pressed hammers, i would mimic Todd in the videos.

Open/closed:
and this may sound contradictory but,
If the tone is too powerful and open, B-72 is used to harden and thin(close) the tone. If the tone sounded thin (like many new hammers) you would either use the softener or needle to increase the power(bloom). When juicing this area, avoid it wicking into the other areas.

Sustain:
If the sustain has an immediate decay and no sustain (like the tone is going off a cliff), this means the sustain area is too hard. soften the sustain area just enough to get sustain and leave it be. I'm still baffled by some that suggest to harden this area as a pre-voicing procedure for cold pressed hammers.

-chris


Chernobieff Piano Restorations
"Where Tone is Key"
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
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