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Originally Posted by wouter79
Originally Posted by RonTuner
Hi Coda9 - maybe you missed this from earlier -

https://www.steinway.com/news/features/utilty/cleaning-your-piano

Ron Koval

It gives contradictory info

>Disinfecting Piano Keys
>Use diluted alcohol-based disinfectants, do not use bleach-based disinfectants or any product containing citrus.


and then

>General Cleaning Guidelines
>Never use solvents of any kind to clean either the black or the white keys of your Steinway piano — they can damage the fine finish of the keys.

FAIK both alcohol and water are solvents

Steinway probably don't employ any chemists to proof read their news articles :-)

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Masks, except N95, do not protect the wearer. They protect those with whom you come in contact FROM YOU. .
Where does one buy a N95 mask ?
Also one can remove the panels (upper and lower panels )of an upright piano before the tuner arrives.Then replace them when he has gone.Removing the fallboard I find more tricky.
At least the technician will be less exposed to a fairly large area of the piano.
I wonder if using a dehumidifier may help customer and technician.
Surely in drier areas bacteria would survive for a shorter time or perhaps not ?

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by dogperson
Masks, except N95, do not protect the wearer. They protect those with whom you come in contact FROM YOU. .
Where does one buy a N95 mask ?
Also one can remove the panels (upper and lower panels )of an upright piano before the tuner arrives.Then replace them when he has gone.Removing the fallboard I find more tricky.
At least the technician will be less exposed to a fairly large area of the piano.
I wonder if using a dehumidifier may help customer and technician.
Surely in drier areas bacteria would survive for a shorter time or perhaps not ?

You can, or at least could, get an N95 mask from Amazon, Ebay or any good tool shop. Logically a dehumidifier might help but probably not enough to make any measurable difference , I don't think there is yet any data on how humidity affects transmission to do other than guess. You're much better off I think to reduce the viral load by not using the room for as long as you have patience for and with lots of air changes (open windows are best).

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I am not finding N95 masks on amazon for sale except to frontline healthcare workers. In fact, we have been asked not to purchase as they are required for medical personnel.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Originally Posted by dogperson
I am not finding N95 masks on amazon for sale except to frontline healthcare workers. In fact, we have been asked not to purchase as they are required for medical personnel.

I thought that availability might have dried up but I can still see FFP2 masks which are the European standard roughly equivalent to N95 and even FFP3 which are roughly equivalent to N100. However I do agree, there is no general need for these for us, aside from front line workers with high exposure levels, and it is better not to purchase these.

That said I feel a little hypocritical here as I have three or four N95 masks left over from when I was doing a lot of dusty work and bought a box.

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With dentists doing less work these days, there are still masks for them available - they look like surgeon masks and are designated level 1,2 and 3 - with 3 being the highest level of filtration. I use level 1 for out-and-about and a level 3 when I tune.

Look for dental supply companies online...

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I wonder if using a dehumidifier may help customer and technician.
Surely in drier areas bacteria would survive for a shorter time or perhaps not ?

We're talking virus, not bacteria these days.

FAIK it's like this. Yes the virus may live shorter in dry situations. But the human respiratory system weaker in dry situations because the mucous membrane becomes thinner. I'm not sure what would be optimal but I would guess somewhere in the middle.

Also, a dehumidifier actively pumps around air. If that air contains viruses, it thus helps distribution

I think what would help is a good air filter with a HEPA.It must be well maintained, otherwise it does not work or might even be a source of other problems.


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As I already wrote, a surgical mask can not protect you against a virus, you need a well fitting respirator with proper filter. Check this if you don't believe me

https://www.primed.ca/clinical-resources/astm-mask-protection-standards/

Quote
Medical masks (surgical/procedure masks) are loose fitting masks that cover the mouth and nose. They are designed to stop large droplets and splashes or sprays, but are not designed to seal tightly to the face or filter small airborne contaminants.

A respirator is an item of PPE designed to reduce exposure to airborne contaminants. Known airborne pathogens include TB, SARS, Anthrax, and Hanta virus. Respirators must be individually selected to fit the wearers face and shown to provide a good seal. They also must be certified by NIOSH, and used within a comprehensive respiratory program including fit testing and training.


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Well... that depends! It is important to realize that something is always better than nothing, and look to places where a high percentage of mask use has proven successful to encourage more use of masks indoors and where outdoor areas are crowded.


"Although N95 respirators appeared to have a protective advantage over surgical masks in laboratory settings, our meta-analysis showed that there were insufficient data to determine definitively whether N95 respirators are superior to surgical masks in protecting health care workers against transmissible acute respiratory infections in clinical settings."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868605/

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I agree with Ron 100% Something is WAY better than nothing. Just look at South Korea compared to New York - both have HUGE subway systems (Seoul's system is used by 7 million a day on an average workday. NYC is around 5 million). Look at pictures of the Korean subway: EVERYONE is wearing a mask in addition to the constant cleaning of the stations and daily sterilization of the trains.

Korea started this protocol in early March, New York (for some insane reason) refused to do daily sterilizations until the beginning of May, and mandatory face covering wasn't enacted until April 19th.

Korea total Covid 19 deaths: 263
New York total Covid 19 deaths: 28,361
(https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)

Of course you may think that this is because New York is so big and that's why they have greater numbers.

South Korea population: 51.64 million people
New York State: 19.45 million

Here's what I posted on my Facebook page today:
Effectiveness of Masks: tips for patriots

There is some interesting back and forth there, with even Del Fandrich contributing! Please check it out and feel free to share.


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So today's client decided to reach out at the end of the tuning and shake my hand...

I did. No worries - that hand wasn't going to touch anything else before being sanitized!

I kindof thought this one might be a bit cavalier about covid-19, so I did my best to not be a vector for transmission. They did stay a room apart while I worked, so the contact time was minimized.

Ron Koval


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Originally Posted by RonTuner
Well... that depends! It is important to realize that something is always better than nothing, and look to places where a high percentage of mask use has proven successful to encourage more use of masks indoors and where outdoor areas are crowded.


"Although N95 respirators appeared to have a protective advantage over surgical masks in laboratory settings, our meta-analysis showed that there were insufficient data to determine definitively whether N95 respirators are superior to surgical masks in protecting health care workers against transmissible acute respiratory infections in clinical settings."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4868605/

Ron Koval

Someone's analysis being unable to draw definitive conclusions does not prove anything one way or the other. Going by the specifications you can see that an N95 (or better N100) mask will stop more particles of the virus size than a surgical mask. Therefore the expectation should probably be, until proved otherwise, that the N95 mask would provide better protection for the wearer against the virus. However even the standard medical mask provides valuable protection for other people against the wearer being already infected with and spreading the virus.

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Here's what I've noticed about masks: They do draw a lot of air from around the edges. Obviously the air flow takes the path of least resistance. This seems to be why the popular conception right now is that they protect others more than they protect you.

We've all seen those flecks of spittle that come careening out of someones mouth when talking. If that spit is infected:

If a person is sick, the droplets in a single cough may contain as many as two hundred million individual virus particles. The number varies dramatically and changes over the course of an infection as the immune system clears out the virus. Generally, a sick person is most infectious as soon as the first symptoms appear and less infectious as his or her immune system clears the virus.
https://www.livescience.com/3686-gross-science-cough-sneeze.html

Clearly if a person is peaking with their viral load (even if they are asymptomatic) and a droplet goes from their mouth right into yours, you just received a massive virus dose. Masks prevent that kind of transfer.

Last edited by rysowers; 05/19/20 11:22 AM.

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Originally Posted by rysowers
Here's what I've noticed about masks: They do draw a lot of air from around the edges. Obviously the air flow takes the path of least resistance. This seems to be why the popular conception right now is that they protect others more than they protect you.

We've all seen those flecks of spittle that come careening out of someones mouth when talking. If that spit is infected:

If a person is sick, the droplets in a single cough may contain as many as two hundred million individual virus particles. The number varies dramatically and changes over the course of an infection as the immune system clears out the virus. Generally, a sick person is most infectious as soon as the first symptoms appear and less infectious as his or her immune system clears the virus.
https://www.livescience.com/3686-gross-science-cough-sneeze.html

Clearly if a person is peaking with their viral load (even if they are asymptomatic) and a droplet goes from their mouth right into yours, you just received a massive virus dose. Masks prevent that kind of transfer.

Yes that is true but usually you aren't close enough for the spittle droplets to reach you and they just drop to the floor. The major route of infection is the normal smaller droplets which hit their air and then atomise into very fine particles each containing a low number of viruses. It is breathing that suspended viral load in the air that gives the infection route. So you either need a good mask that will keep the atomised particles away from you or any sort of crap mask on the other person that will trap the small (and large) particles at source as they breathe out or cough *before* they have atomised to really small ones taht go straight through the cheap masks.

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Originally Posted by wouter79
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
I wonder if using a dehumidifier may help customer and technician.
Surely in drier areas bacteria would survive for a shorter time or perhaps not ?

We're talking virus, not bacteria these days.

FAIK it's like this. Yes the virus may live shorter in dry situations. But the human respiratory system weaker in dry situations because the mucous membrane becomes thinner. I'm not sure what would be optimal but I would guess somewhere in the middle.

Also, a dehumidifier actively pumps around air. If that air contains viruses, it thus helps distribution

I think what would help is a good air filter with a HEPA.It must be well maintained, otherwise it does not work or might even be a source of other problems.
So how long after the technician has left do.you think I could use the dehumidifier?
I ask because the a technician is coming on Saturday not to tune but to adjust a pedal which has developed a squeak.
Technicians are being allowed to work again in BC. I am not sure if I can get one of these air filters which you describe .I would appreciate some help as the humidity in Vancouver can rise quite quickly to about 60 to 65 especially if it rains.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 05/25/20 08:45 PM. Reason: Doubled my post
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Hate to ask this, but has anyone heard of a piano tuner coming down with covid after going to clients home?
I'm getting requests but prefer to wait to go out til they get some decent treatment drug.

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Since this topic started at the beginning of May, there has been a shift in what the medical community knows about likely avenues of transmission for Covid-19. Initially, the warnings were about touching surfaces and then transferring that to our faces. Current data suggests:

"The virus is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person.

Between people who are in close contact with one another (within about 6 feet).
Through respiratory droplets produced when an infected person coughs, sneezes, or talks.
These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs.
COVID-19 may be spread by people who are not showing symptoms."

This means that sterilization of the piano or keyboard really doesn't need to be our primary concern. Yes, little Suzie may have sneezed onto the keys, but if you don't touch your face until you've used sanitizer on your hands, you should be safe. I will continue to clean keys before I tune, (because that's just part of what I do) but I won't worry about using sanitizer or anything that might damage keys or finish.

What I will be doing is wearing a mask and continuing to ask that the client move to another part of the house while I am there. If weather permits, and we need to talk about any specific issues, I'll try to move outside for the discussion.

Be well!

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The CDC has clarified that Covid-19 can still be transmitted through surfaces —/ but person to person is the higher risk

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...cdc-saying-covid-19-surfaces/5235317002/


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Wondering if people are going to homes to tune now with the current situation. Since I'm high risk in my 60's I've been postponing clients til a treatment drug comes out. For those that have, what has been your experience?
Anyone get the virus? I suppose if I resume they'd be the fastest tunings I ever did.
Also, checking an OSHA covid safety sheet for in home service work, looks like they recommend postponing repairs unless emergency.

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I’ve been doing it occasionally since mid May. I do ask the clients to clean the keyboard the day prior to my visit and keep their distance (and wear a face covering if they’re passing through the piano room) while I’m there. I’ve found I can tune with a mask and gloves on. A couple people have even taken advantage of contactless payment options, which I like from the point of view of having money expeditiously appear in my bank account, but don’t like in terms of losing a few bucks in processing fees. Nobody’s complained about any of this.


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