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Originally Posted by gwing
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How would Most amateur pianists piano shopping even be aware of anything other than Steinway, Yamaha and Kwai?

Quite possibly most shoppers will be parents out to buy something for their children starting piano lessons and will have some recommendation on what to get, and where to get it, from their teachers. If that advice is to go to the local dealer than no, probably, they won't be aware of anything else, except that most dealers seem to now be offering one other budget brand as well so they would see that one. Possibly that would be the recommendation they received.

Those aside, most people making a substantial purchase like a piano do some research. And even the most casual look on the internet, even just browsing ebay, makes you aware of many other piano brands, very quickly. This isn't an age of ignorance akny more where knowledge is limited to what you can see within a days walk of your village.
Yes it began in childhood.At 11 our piano technician was always talking about his love of pre war Seiler pianos .I was ways always keenly aware of that the piano and its tone (which he highited by these discussions) I was interested !
Later when we moved to South Africa my teacher had an August Förster grand. There were European pianos in the piano stores and a friend of mine had a German piano ,I cannot remember the name.
Our simphony orchestra as I mentioned before had two NY Steinways concert grands which in the late 70's and 80's one was sold and a new Bösendorfer concert grand replaced it. This move alarmed and then delighted the audience .This was done through the advice and influence a visting Austrian conductor.

Since our 20's my husband and I attended symphony concerts and heard international pianists as well as our own pianists like Marc Raubenheimer, who was a friend of ours.
Since early high school one of my subjects was music with an ephasis on on the piano.
Do you REALLY believe I had never heard of Bechstein and Bluthner or Hamburg Steinways ?
You did not even need an Internet in those days in South Africa because you saw european pianos
in people's homes and in the dealers.
I often wonder what on earth happened to that that Bösendorfer in the concert hall or even if they still have all those symphony concerts there now ?

Last edited by Lady Bird; 05/14/20 06:25 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
In the internet age I think most people will know Chinese pianos with German names like Ritmuller are made in China. I don't think many will care either way about or be fooled by the non-Chinese name of the piano. I certainly don't.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager a year's pay that most people wouldn't make that connection at all. I bet most buyers don't even know Bosendorfer or Grotrian are names of piano brands.
I think those that have been very pianists (amateurs) would know a few good European pianos especially if they have been playing for while.Names like Steinways, Bechstein Bösendorfer I think
are quite well known.Others like Sauter, Estonia, Seiler are much less known.

I recently played a Scheidmayor stencel (Korean made), really quite a nice tone ! When I lifted the lid I could see it was marked Renner with the usual oval label.I made sure to ask again if it was really made in Korea as I thought the sales person may have meant Kawai. (Kawai made a few of these in the 80's. (so did Ibach.)
By the price of course one knew it was a stencel.The piano was a used piano but still in fairly new
condition. I wondered if it really really had much Renner in the action as the price was really quite low.

How would Most amateur pianists piano shopping even be aware of anything other than Steinway, Yamaha and Kwai? If I were looking to buy a piano within 150 mile radius of my house that would be all I would see. We have people ask questions all the time here about the other two models that are seen at Steinway dealers, and they seem to have no idea where they are made. Not everybody reads a forum or knows about Piano Buyer.
I think you may be surprised, some may just have heard that German pianos are good .Do you think
they cannot find out the name of those pianos via the internet ,or as Gwing has mentioned music teachers etc

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
In the internet age I think most people will know Chinese pianos with German names like Ritmuller are made in China. I don't think many will care either way about or be fooled by the non-Chinese name of the piano. I certainly don't.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager a year's pay that most people wouldn't make that connection at all. I bet most buyers don't even know Bosendorfer or Grotrian are names of piano brands.
I think those that have been very pianists (amateurs) would know a few good European pianos especially if they have been playing for while.Names like Steinways, Bechstein Bösendorfer I think
are quite well known.Others like Sauter, Estonia, Seiler are much less known.

I recently played a Scheidmayor stencel (Korean made), really quite a nice tone ! When I lifted the lid I could see it was marked Renner with the usual oval label.I made sure to ask again if it was really made in Korea as I thought the sales person may have meant Kawai. (Kawai made a few of these in the 80's. (so did Ibach.)
By the price of course one knew it was a stencel.The piano was a used piano but still in fairly new
condition. I wondered if it really really had much Renner in the action as the price was really quite low.

How would Most amateur pianists piano shopping even be aware of anything other than Steinway, Yamaha and Kwai? If I were looking to buy a piano within 150 mile radius of my house that would be all I would see. We have people ask questions all the time here about the other two models that are seen at Steinway dealers, and they seem to have no idea where they are made. Not everybody reads a forum or knows about Piano Buyer.
You make it seem as though PW and Piano.Buyer are the only possible ways of learning about pianos ? I find that very strange dogsperson.

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I don't know how things are in the US, but here in Bulgaria beginners know only Steinway and Yamaha as piano brands. Older people may know about Petrof and have been taught that German pianos are the best whereas Soviet pianos are crap. And that's it. Here's a funny story. I've created a DIY MIDI controller from an old grand piano action and optical sensors (see my signature). A relative of mine saw my project and was fascinated and a few days later called me:

"I was very fascinated with your project, and we have an old grand piano in our garage, you can come see it and borrow parts from it if you need ones"

I asked: "What's the brand of the piano?"

"Hmm, didn't remember, some unknown German brand, I couldn't remember it, let me go check it".

In a few minutes I received a text message "Bösendorfer, whatever that means" 🤣 (BTW, I actually went to check this piano, it was put on its side and surrounded by trash, so couldn't see if it's any good, besides having Viennese action, so after the lockdown I intend working with a technician to see if we can restore it)

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/14/20 07:36 AM.

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When I was taking lessons as a kid, we had a Baldwin upright. Recitals were sometimes on a Steinway grand. Other than that, I probably heard of Yamaha, Kawai, and Young Chang (which I thought must be named after a 15-yo Chinese guy), and that's it. Decades later, it wasn't until well after I joined PW that I was even aware there existed Bechstein, Grotrian, Estonia, Petrof, Pearl River, Hailun, etc.

It's not because I'm (all that) dumb, I was just entirely ignorant about what the world of the piano industry. Outside niche communities like this, the topic may never come up. And I agree with what was said that a huge number of buyers today are probably parents who are getting pianos for their kids to take lessons; they just get what their teacher recommends and have no particular desire or need to dive deep into research.

In this context, the idea of Chinese versus non-Chinese, or Chinese with European-sounding names, isn't even a blip on the mental radar.


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I’ll wax romantic here for a bit. When I’ve purchased new pianos, enjoy the for some years then trade them in for something “better”, I always hope “they go to a good home” and don’t end up in a trash heap some years down the road. I like happy storied endings. Having seen things or read things over my lifetime I do know better but still like to think that my pianos are loved and enjoyed, especially the better pianos. The Bösendorfer story pretty much trashed that whole delusional fantasy.
CyberGene - I hope you can rescue that poor Bösendorfer. Uggggh what a terrible shame! Ok back to topic.

Last edited by j&j; 05/14/20 08:43 AM.

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Originally Posted by j&j
I’ll wax romantic here for a bit. When I’ve purchased new pianos, enjoy the for some years then trade them in for something “better”, I always hope “they go to a good home” and don’t end up in a trash heap some years down the road. I like happy storied endings. Having seen things or read things over my lifetime I do know better but still like to think that my pianos are loved and enjoyed, especially the better pianos. The Bösendorfer story pretty much trashed that whole delusional fantasy.
CyberGene - I hope you can rescue that poor Bösendorfer. Uggggh what a terrible shame! Ok back to topic.

I guess this story is also one typical of our country history perhaps. This particular Bösendorfer has 85 keys with Viennese action, so I'd assume it is at least 130 years old. I asked about its history and the current owners didn't know much, besides it had been a property of a wealthy man who had to flee Bulgaria at dawn of the communism (when communist just imprisoned the wealthy and would confiscate all their property) and so just gave it away to some friends, who then gave it away to the parents of the current owners... So, it's a story about persecution, confiscation, hiding... And ultimately, and very sadly, ending up stored in a cold garage on its side for who knows how long frown The technician I contacted said EVERY Bösendorfer is a gem and unless totally screwed up, should be restored because there are no pianos like that nowadays. That are his words but he may be too partial to Bösendorfer smile And I've read on the Internet that prolonged storage on the side could irreversibly destroy the geometry... On the other hand the outer rims of Bosies are solid wood planks, so who knows, it may have survived.


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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by j&j
I’ll wax romantic here for a bit. When I’ve purchased new pianos, enjoy the for some years then trade them in for something “better”, I always hope “they go to a good home” and don’t end up in a trash heap some years down the road. I like happy storied endings. Having seen things or read things over my lifetime I do know better but still like to think that my pianos are loved and enjoyed, especially the better pianos. The Bösendorfer story pretty much trashed that whole delusional fantasy.
CyberGene - I hope you can rescue that poor Bösendorfer. Uggggh what a terrible shame! Ok back to topic.

I guess this story is also one typical of our country history perhaps. This particular Bösendorfer has 85 keys with Viennese action, so I'd assume it is at least 130 years old. I asked about its history and the current owners didn't know much, besides it had been a property of a wealthy man who had to flee Bulgaria at dawn of the communism (when communist just imprisoned the wealthy and would confiscate all their property) and so just gave it away to some friends, who then gave it away to the parents of the current owners... So, it's a story about persecution, confiscation, hiding... And ultimately, and very sadly, ending up stored in a cold garage on its side for who knows how long frown The technician I contacted said EVERY Bösendorfer is a gem and unless totally screwed up, should be restored because there are no pianos like that nowadays. That are his words but he may be too partial to Bösendorfer smile And I've read on the Internet that prolonged storage on the side could irreversibly destroy the geometry... On the other hand the outer rims of Bosies are solid wood planks, so who knows, it may have survived.

This reminds me of the 'finding old car in a farmers barn' stories and then years spent rebuilding the car. In those cases the economic logic can work as sometimes those old rebuilt and rare cars can be sold for much more than the price of a new one. It isn't exactly the same case with pianos though.

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^ Sorry about this lateral off-topic I created. I actually intend to use this Bösendorfer if it can be restored and my upper limit is around €5000 which the technician said is the average price for restoring an old grand like this WHEN it has not been damaged badly. More than that and I'm out. And even in that case I'm still wondering if it's worth it. For €5000 I can purchase a used 30-40 year old small grand. I'm not sure a 130 year old Bösendorfer with the old Viennese action is so much worth it compared to a newer second-hand German grand that's well preserved.

P.S. And to be on-topic. For €5000 I can purchase a brand-new Chinese baby grand laugh

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/14/20 11:38 AM.

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CyberGene-

Sell kits and/or plans for your DIY hybrid controller, make alot of money, and buy a new bosendorfer.

I'm still in awe with that project. Sorry to keep the discussion off topic.

-Dore


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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote
How would Most amateur pianists piano shopping even be aware of anything other than Steinway, Yamaha and Kwai? If I were looking to buy a piano within 150 mile radius of my house that would be all I would see. We have people ask questions all the time here about the other two models that are seen at Steinway dealers, and they seem to have no idea where they are made. Not everybody reads a forum or knows about Piano Buyer.
This is odd to me because, while I live in an urban area, it is not a top-10 US city in size. And yet, I am not far from Yamaha, Bosendorfer, Schimmel, Estonia, Kawai, Grotrian, Fazioli, Mason & Hamlin, Sauter, and Steinway dealers. There also are 50-100 used and rebuilt pianos for sale at these dealers

I suspect your urban area is not 30,000.
What city are you talking of ?

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I don't know how things are in the US, but here in Bulgaria beginners know only Steinway and Yamaha as piano brands.
It's the same here, except older people will know about Bechstein. I think many beginners might not even have heard of Kawai.

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Surely a young person looking to buy an acoustic piano would type something like “Best piano brands” into their favorite search engine and read about a variety of fine pianos.

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by gwing
Quote
How would Most amateur pianists piano shopping even be aware of anything other than Steinway, Yamaha and Kwai?

Quite possibly most shoppers will be parents out to buy something for their children starting piano lessons and will have some recommendation on what to get, and where to get it, from their teachers. If that advice is to go to the local dealer than no, probably, they won't be aware of anything else, except that most dealers seem to now be offering one other budget brand as well so they would see that one. Possibly that would be the recommendation they received.

Those aside, most people making a substantial purchase like a piano do some research. And even the most casual look on the internet, even just browsing ebay, makes you aware of many other piano brands, very quickly. This isn't an age of ignorance akny more where knowledge is limited to what you can see within a days walk of your village.
Yes it began in childhood.At 11 our piano technician was always talking about his love of pre war Seiler pianos .I was ways always keenly aware of that the piano and its tone (which he highited by these discussions) I was interested !
Later when we moved to South Africa my teacher had an August Förster grand. There were European pianos in the piano stores and a friend of mine had a German piano ,I cannot remember the name.
Our simphony orchestra as I mentioned before had two NY Steinways concert grands which in the late 70's and 80's one was sold and a new Bösendorfer concert grand replaced it. This move alarmed and then delighted the audience .This was done through the advice and influence a visting Austrian conductor.

Since our 20's my husband and I attended symphony concerts and heard international pianists as well as our own pianists like Marc Raubenheimer, who was a friend of ours.
Since early high school one of my subjects was music with an ephasis on on the piano.
Do you REALLY believe I had never heard of Bechstein and Bluthner or Hamburg Steinways ?
You did not even need an Internet in those days in South Africa because you saw european pianos
in people's homes and in the dealers.
I often wonder what on earth happened to that that Bösendorfer in the concert hall or even if they still have all those symphony concerts there now ?
Yes Lady Bird - we do. In my city of Bloemfontein we still HAD regular concerts before the Covid19 lockdown. As a matter of fact, we have two symphony orchestras here - and a great magnitude of great European instruments. Unfortunately the Hamburg Steinway in the City Hall was damaged during vandalism last year, but is currently being restored.

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Apologies if I've missed this somewhere along the lines and not to state the obvious but if Chinese built pianos were really that bad, would such a prestigious firm as Steinway be using Pear River (is it them or Young Chang?) to build their Essex line of pianos?

I imagine Steinway conducted a lot of research before picking to use a Chinese manufacturer even if it is only for its entry-level tier of pianos. If Chinese pianos were really that inferior regardless of whether that's build quality, action setup, quality of soundboard, hammers and strings etc then I can't imagine Steinway would want to have any involvement or connection to Chinese built pianos for fear of tarnishing their own image.

Would be keen to hear people's thoughts on this.

All the best,

Will


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Well, could there be a difference between a Chinese brand piano and a Chinese made piano for another brand? Not saying anything, after all I haven't played Chinese brand pianos. (And all my Yamaha pianos are made in China: the N1X, NU1X, probably most other digital pianos I've owned).

Last edited by CyberGene; 05/15/20 03:48 AM.

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Originally Posted by williambonard
Apologies if I've missed this somewhere along the lines and not to state the obvious but if Chinese built pianos were really that bad, would such a prestigious firm as Steinway be using Pear River (is it them or Young Chang?) to build their Essex line of pianos?

I imagine Steinway conducted a lot of research before picking to use a Chinese manufacturer even if it is only for its entry-level tier of pianos. If Chinese pianos were really that inferior regardless of whether that's build quality, action setup, quality of soundboard, hammers and strings etc then I can't imagine Steinway would want to have any involvement or connection to Chinese built pianos for fear of tarnishing their own image.

Would be keen to hear people's thoughts on this.

All the best,

Will
yong chang is a korea company

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Originally Posted by williambonard
Apologies if I've missed this somewhere along the lines and not to state the obvious but if Chinese built pianos were really that bad, would such a prestigious firm as Steinway be using Pear River (is it them or Young Chang?) to build their Essex line of pianos?

I imagine Steinway conducted a lot of research before picking to use a Chinese manufacturer even if it is only for its entry-level tier of pianos. If Chinese pianos were really that inferior regardless of whether that's build quality, action setup, quality of soundboard, hammers and strings etc then I can't imagine Steinway would want to have any involvement or connection to Chinese built pianos for fear of tarnishing their own image.

Would be keen to hear people's thoughts on this.

All the best,

Will

The Essex is quite likely an example of a 'bad' Chines piano. Not because it is bad if compared in context with entry level pianos but because the price Steinway sell it at puts it in competition with better alternatives so it will be 'bad' compared to others. That isn't the pianos fault.

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The way I see it, Chinese pianos are those that are fully made (including design and engineering by the chinese)..and those are local brands.
Chinese assembled are something else. Those are instruments designed and engineered by companies like Steinway / Feurich / Grotrian and just put together is Asia.
The difference between Essex and Boston is who assembles it. Steinway designs, engineers and checks the final product.
Same with Whilhelm Grotrian and the others who outsourced their production.
While some chinese brands might lack certain things is probably due to the fact that they don't have 150-200 years of know how and are playing catch up. Also, those are marketed to the vast majority of people (not those with trees that grow $100 bills).
Chinese assembled are the way they are because that's what the mother company wanted in order to address a certain segment of the market.
Try assembling and Essex in Germany and see what its price would be when you compare the wage of a german with that of a chinese (without changing anything else in the process)
Names, price points are literally a company's choice and have nothing to do with the actual instrument.
No instrument's price is too high as long as someone is willing to pay it.

Last edited by CosminX; 05/15/20 05:36 AM.

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Originally Posted by CosminX
No instrument's price is too high as long as someone is willing to pay it.

I prefer "No instrument's price is too high for an idiot if they are willing to pay for it when there are better and cheaper alternatives", although they are still entitled to regard better as having a better name on the fallboard or any other criteria they like. Most of us live in the real world with limited incomes and measure things relative to their costs, clearly if something has a higher budget it should be able to be manufactured to a higher standard and you need to compare like for like.

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