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Jumping off the Chinese pianos thread and discussions there about declining piano manufacturing in the West, I thought some might be interested in this video by Living Pianos. According to the video, there were 1200 piano stores in the U.S. in 2005, but only 150 today. Even if that is partially correct, that is an alarming drop. Living Pianos and a few other "YouTube piano stores" really target the online consumer. I think they even offer free shipping all over the U.S.

Jim Laabs is another online seller in Minnesota and will ship for less than $500 anywhere in the U.S. With Laabs, you get to try the piano after they set it up in your house, and if you don't like it, they will take it back and refund your $500 deposit.

I also noticed that these online resellers often sell used pianos at 25%-50% less than my local piano stores. Laabs seems to get a lot of his used Japanese pianos from a rebuilder in Japan. I think this is what are known as gray market pianos. Don't know if Living Pianos does this as well. They list a lot of used American and European brands.

Anyway, here's the video.



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Mr Estrin's video and his "online piano store" misses the first basic and most important principle of piano purchasing: "Try before you buy." Who, except the totally uninitiated - those who think buying a piano is like buying blender from Amazon - would buy a piano without having heard it live and tried it? Experiencing the touch and tone is the primary criterion for selecting a piano and only those who know nothing about pianos would buy online.

Perhaps that is the clientele that Mr. Estrin wants; I don't think he would get many "pianists" buying from him.

Regards,


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Good point Bruce. But if these guys are routinely selling for thousands less, then it would warrant a plane ticket to go try the piano. I guess you'd lose the spontaneous hands-on browsing experience, but if there was a model I was interested in, and it sounded good on YouTube, I could see myself grabbing a flight.

Another key component is having an experienced pianist at the store who knows a thing or two about regulation to let you know how the piano feels, and if it's properly regulated. Still not the same as you playing, but may give enough information to help you decide if the flight is worthwhile.

Finally, you could do a lot of shopping locally, especially if you're in a market big enough to have a good selection. For example, my local dealer knows I'm interested in 6' Kawais and Yamahas. They sent me a price list of what they have, and they're several thousand more than the online dealers are selling them for. I could see trying the local pianos, narrowing down to the brand/model/age-range I like, then flying to the online dealer to try a similar one that sounds promising.

Last edited by Emery Wang; 04/20/20 12:21 AM.

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1200 to 150, if true, is pretty phenomenal attrition. I mean, I know there's a decline, but that seems pretty severe. (I'm not saying it's not true, just that it'd be worse than I even imagined).

Anyway, I'm defintely in the "try before you buy" camp, but I've also suspected (and posted) that for increasingly large swaths of the country, making a serious purchase means traveling to a "destination" sort of store, and apparently for many people that's the case for any sort of piano purchase.

Obviously, there are people pioneering this sort of shopping experience. I think the shops that survive and thrive in the future will be those that make an effort to reach a larger clientele than those in the same area code. And also provide an "experience" larger and better than an aggressive sales approach.


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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
I could see myself grabbing a flight.

thumb that may be the only option soon for anyone who's not in a major metro area.


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Originally Posted by BruceD
Mr Estrin's video and his "online piano store" misses the first basic and most important principle of piano purchasing: "Try before you buy." Who, except the totally uninitiated - those who think buying a piano is like buying blender from Amazon - would buy a piano without having heard it live and tried it? Experiencing the touch and tone is the primary criterion for selecting a piano and only those who know nothing about pianos would buy online.

Perhaps that is the clientele that Mr. Estrin wants; I don't think he would get many "pianists" buying from him.

Regards,

A common response and one we see regularly.I meet a lot of parents buying for children for the first time and their knowledge is very basic.Try before you buy is not easy for them.I've met a lot of piano teachers who are good players but do not have a clue about what is going on inside and don't have very much product knowledge.Their observation are often puzzling.In fact,I would go so far as to say that extensive piano knowledge is not a common thing,so doesn't that make try before you buy,at the very least,a challenge.Maybe this offer of extensive service on-line is not such a bad thing,particularly under current circumstances.


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Originally Posted by BruceD
Mr Estrin's video and his "online piano store" misses the first basic and most important principle of piano purchasing: "Try before you buy." Who, except the totally uninitiated - those who think buying a piano is like buying blender from Amazon - would buy a piano without having heard it live and tried it? Experiencing the touch and tone is the primary criterion for selecting a piano and only those who know nothing about pianos would buy online.

Perhaps that is the clientele that Mr. Estrin wants; I don't think he would get many "pianists" buying from him.

Regards,

Actually, they seem to be offering a real;y good "try and buy" scheme in your own house. I wonder how many pianos you can go through like that before they lose patience and drop you as a customer. Let's see, I would like to try six or seven of your pianos ....

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Originally Posted by gwing
I wonder how many pianos you can go through like that before they lose patience and drop you as a customer. Let's see, I would like to try six or seven of your pianos ....

I ah e always wondered that with the “try at home” sellers! (There are a few, AdoptABabyGrand .com does that IIRC)


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Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Good point Bruce. But if these guys are routinely selling for thousands less, then it would warrant a plane ticket to go try the piano. I guess you'd lose the spontaneous hands-on browsing experience, but if there was a model I was interested in, and it sounded good on YouTube, I could see myself grabbing a flight.

Another key component is having an experienced pianist at the store who knows a thing or two about regulation to let you know how the piano feels, and if it's properly regulated. Still not the same as you playing, but may give enough information to help you decide if the flight is worthwhile.

Finally, you could do a lot of shopping locally, especially if you're in a market big enough to have a good selection. For example, my local dealer knows I'm interested in 6' Kawais and Yamahas. They sent me a price list of what they have, and they're several thousand more than the online dealers are selling them for. I could see trying the local pianos, narrowing down to the brand/model/age-range I like, then flying to the online dealer to try a similar one that sounds promising.
1. No one or very few are going to be taking flights anywhere for a long time and especially not to try a piano.
2. Listening to a piano on YouTube and making a judgement depends on the quality of one's computer speakers and on the quality of the recording(which can be altered to make the piano sound different than if would sound in person).
3. If the "experienced pianist" you are talking about is Mr. Estrin or similar online piano dealer then you are forgetting he is also the salesmen who's not going to say anything negative about a piano. Can you in your wildest imagination think any online piano dealer would say, for example, "this piano's touch is not consistent"? And his description may not match your meaning of the words. One person's "light action" could be another person's "medium action".
4. I don't trust the figures you quoted about the decrease in piano stores. Not many posters have complained about the lack of stores nearby.
5. If a rebuilt piano sells for "thousands less" it certainly sometimes and maybe often means the work done on it is not as good as a piano selling for more.
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Bottom line: I think very few "serious" pianists will buy a piano online without the opportunity to play it first. There are probably a lot, maybe even a majority, of pianists who don't feel the necessity to try a piano before buying and are far less demanding/fussy than the average PW poster, and they may be willing to buy a piano online.

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I am yet to find an acoustic piano that I can’t get used to. Except for some totally neglected rubbish pianos. Isn’t it a bit exaggerated how important it is to try the piano before you buy it? I agree it’s important for a concert pianist or any other advanced pianist. But how about parents purchasing a piano fit their kid? Do they always bring Yuja Wang to approve the purchase? And even if she approves, does that mean the piano is good for everyone? For that kid? Besides, most of the new Japanese pianos are extremely consistent. And well liked. Is it guaranteed that without testing it you will end up with an unplayable piano at home? A disaster? I fully understand we’re connoisseurs here and of course we are picky about pianos. But I think you grossly overestimate the average piano buyer.


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A note on internet sellers in response to the "hop on a plane" point.

Many if not most internet sellers of luxury items especially do not in fact have a store that one could visit, even if one wanted to. Many if not most internet sellers, especially of luxury items, don't in fact own the items that they list; they are really a listing service and not a store at all. I don't know whether this is true of internet piano sales or not, but it certainly could be. If it is, trying out the piano in situ would not be possible; the pianos are not in a store one could visit both because there is no store and because the pianos are all over the place anyway.

I wonder how delighted the internet sellers would really be if asked to take a piano back. And what about warranties? Service?

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A year ago I bought a Steinway D sn402534 from Robert Estrin's online piano store "Living Pianos". His on-line recording of the piano was top notch. The price was very good, the piano sounded great so I bought it. It was a leap of faith purchase but according to my piano technician, I got a good 1967 D with the teflon action replaced with a Renner action. It has the original sound board and pin block. Would I do it again? You bet - but I might catch a flight to inspect the piano first.


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I keep track of sales and goings on for my local Yamaha dealer. He was offering private appointments and online details. Since he’s a non essential business according to the Governor’s decree, now he can only offer the same set up as Living Pianos. Virtual visits. Deposit with the rest due when the piano is delivered, then tested and approved in the home. If I didn’t play and just wanted a nice upright for my kid(s), that plan could certainly work. For me at my stage of life? No. I’m one if those people that enjoy piano shopping and playing a bunch of pieces on each piano I try, unless I don’t like the piano much in the first place.

The really interesting/scary thing is many piano stores have incredibly lousy websites. The Kawai dealer’s website is particularly pitiful. My 7 year old grandnephew could do a better job. There’s no pictures of any pianos anywhere. No browsing used pianos, not even links to Kawai’s piano specifications. I’d guess she stays in business by word-of-mouth recommendations and offering some lessons and customer meetups. The whole point of her website is “come to the store”. Which now is impossible.

Of course if I was buying at Living Pianos or Rick Jones, or Cunningham Pianos virtually, we’d have to do a Zoom session and possibly a 3 way Zoom session with my piano technician. I just don’t know how well all that will work.

Last edited by j&j; 04/20/20 09:09 AM.

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Good points pro and con everyone. Another nice thing about buying online is access to the collective experience of other shoppers before you buy, such as Amazon reviews or Ebay ratings. The average physical piano store is a black box. You often don't know much about the sales staff, whether their prices are good, whether their products are good, whether they have good service, etc., especially if you're a first time buyer. Just as online shopping has made us collectively much better informed consumers of other goods, I wonder if online piano shopping will do the same for pianos.


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Emery Wang
Good point Bruce. But if these guys are routinely selling for thousands less, then it would warrant a plane ticket to go try the piano. I guess you'd lose the spontaneous hands-on browsing experience, but if there was a model I was interested in, and it sounded good on YouTube, I could see myself grabbing a flight.

Another key component is having an experienced pianist at the store who knows a thing or two about regulation to let you know how the piano feels, and if it's properly regulated. Still not the same as you playing, but may give enough information to help you decide if the flight is worthwhile.

Finally, you could do a lot of shopping locally, especially if you're in a market big enough to have a good selection. For example, my local dealer knows I'm interested in 6' Kawais and Yamahas. They sent me a price list of what they have, and they're several thousand more than the online dealers are selling them for. I could see trying the local pianos, narrowing down to the brand/model/age-range I like, then flying to the online dealer to try a similar one that sounds promising.
1. No one or very few are going to be taking flights anywhere for a long time and especially not to try a piano.
2. Listening to a piano on YouTube and making a judgement depends on the quality of one's computer speakers and on the quality of the recording(which can be altered to make the piano sound different than if would sound in person).
3. If the "experienced pianist" you are talking about is Mr. Estrin or similar online piano dealer then you are forgetting he is also the salesmen who's not going to say anything negative about a piano. Can you in your wildest imagination think any online piano dealer would say, for example, "this piano's touch is not consistent"? And his description may not match your meaning of the words. One person's "light action" could be another person's "medium action".
4. I don't trust the figures you quoted about the decrease in piano stores. Not many posters have complained about the lack of stores nearby.
5. If a rebuilt piano sells for "thousands less" it certainly sometimes and maybe often means the work done on it is not as good as a piano selling for more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Bottom line: I think very few "serious" pianists will buy a piano online without the opportunity to play it first. There are probably a lot, maybe even a majority, of pianists who don't feel the necessity to try a piano before buying and are far less demanding/fussy than the average PW poster, and they may be willing to buy a piano online.

+1


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I regularly look at an 'on-line' seller in Paris, but they do have their own (2) stores and also sell demonstration models from time to time.

Their 10 year guarantee (the cost of which is no doubt added to the price), though, leaves me cold, with such provisions as "the piano must be placed in a place with constant and moderate humidity, at a rate between 50 and 70%, and at a temperature between 18 and 22 °." Another part of the 'contract' is that they do the first tuning, regulation after delivery, and of course the guarantee is contingent on the piano being tuned at least once a year by their tuner or one agreed by them etc. with invoices to prove it, which I guess is fair enough, although if one tunes it oneself then there won't be an invoice.

There is an offer to change the piano if not satisfied (after they've regulated it at your home and subject I think to some discussion with their technician), but of course once they have your money I don't think there's any going back and if they don't have anything you want in stock I would imagine things could get rather sticky.
Tbh I get the impression that they are rather good at what they do, but it's easy to be fooled at a distance, and, well, a good piano costs a fair amount of the folding green stuff.

On the other hand, if a piano is well regulated, responsive and sounds good (so important!), unless the action is really awful it should be possible to get used to it. Having learnt on junk-shop wrecks I think I'd be able to adapt.

Tricky, really, as the few shops within a reasonable travelling distance don't have pianos that really attract my interest.


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I suspect most piano sales are to parents who want to start their children on lessons. I think there are a lot of those. As for an advanced pianist? How often do they swap pianos? I hear so many people talking about getting a forever piano. Maybe many people buy once and that’s for life. So the bigger market is made up of those who won’t benefit from play before buy. So it follows that online sales could work pretty well for this group of customers.

All my pianist friends are STILL on the very first piano they got as a child. Now, it’s gone through a second generation of pianists (their children). And these were entry level pianos, nothing to “hand down to the children”.


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Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
I suspect most piano sales are to parents who want to start their children on lessons. I think there are a lot of those. As for an advanced pianist? How often do they swap pianos? I hear so many people talking about getting a forever piano. Maybe many people buy once and that’s for life. So the bigger market is made up of those who won’t benefit from play before buy. So it follows that online sales could work pretty well for this group of customers.
[...]

The sales to parents who want their children to start lessons might well represent the major sales of Living Pianos; I don't know since we've not seen his sales figures. In that sense, it must be successful because the business has been a going concern for some time.

On the other hand, the videos I have seen given by Mr. Estrin seem to concentrate on grand pianos rather than entry- or mid-level uprights. So I wonder to what degree his video marketing is propelling his sales.

Regards,


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Originally Posted by WeakLeftHand
.....
All my pianist friends are STILL on the very first piano they got as a child. Now, it’s gone through a second generation of pianists (their children). And these were entry level pianos, nothing to “hand down to the children”.
That's true of the people I know as well. The only reason I'm considering buying another is because mine has currently 'reached the end of it's life,' which is rather a shame. It would need a complete rebuild, really - action overhauling or replacing, wrest plank replacing (and probably quite a number of strings). Tuners have basically said 'forget it' it would cost a lot, take a lot of time and so on, and of course, may never be anything like it was before. Mind-you, in the time I've been trying to think what to do it probably could have been redone if I could have found somebody willing to do it (not a 'great make' of piano).


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Boy, some of you people are weird.

But that's ok - you have never been in the piano business. If you had, you would not respond to this the way you have.

It would be like me discussing brain surgery. Maybe that's a stretch - but you get the point.

Most pianos sold at retail are not to piano enthusiasts - they are sold to families purchasing for the first time.

And yes - they know absolutely nothing about pianos.

Therefore, some of them are a complete pain in the ass to deal with. Because they are nervous about shelling out thousands of dollars for an item they know nothing about.

Do you honestly think that those people are going to trust someone online, when they don't even trust a live person in a retail showroom who spends 2 hours with them showing them a new, name brand instrument like a Yamaha U-1????

Think again.

As far as retail establishments go - the number of dealerships in the USA is more like 300. Still, a significant change from pre-recession days of prior to 2008.

That's why you have dealerships now that handle both Yamaha and Kawai - yes, it happens. The manufacturers have no choice but to "double up". And it is great for the dealer - for financial solvency.

Most cities of any size will have a couple of stores. I mean, Twin Falls, Idaho for crying out loud (population maybe 50,000) has a Yamaha dealership and a Steinway/Kawai dealership.

My friends, if the average family cannot find the piano they need in those 2 stores - something is wrong. In my humble opinion. OK -maybe not so humble.

I think Robert Estrin is probably a really nice guy - I have been watching his videos for years. And his new venture may succeed. But I will be surprised if online piano dealerships like this carve out more than a tiny share of the business for acoustic pianos. Digitals??? Different story.

More online marketing by traditional dealerships? Fine - why not?

Better websites? Ok - can't hurt.

But ask yourself this - if the website drove the business, why wouldn't the dealer have a fantastic website rather than just a basic page?

Are they stupid?? Think again.

The website means virtually nothing in the overall scheme of things. It should be obvious.

I am sorry, but in my experience the average or typical piano dealership is anything but a "black box". They are retail establishments loaded with high-priced inventory awaiting your selection. Some are better than others, of course.


That's all for now. Have fun with this.


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