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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There are some fantastic restored grands for around €10k. It’s more about having the space for it.


I have the space, but a Grand is too loud in the heart of the city, right?

That too.


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That'll teach me to post from a phone! frown
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Digital pianos at around $500 (or 500 EUR) are just a small step above toys. They don’t feel like pianos. They don’t sound like pianos. They’re not my culpable year. frown
That's deep ...


CUPPA TEA became CULPABLE YEAR? Thanks a lot, Jobs.

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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There are some fantastic restored grands for around €10k. It’s more about having the space for it.


I have the space, but a Grand is too loud in the heart of the city, right?


Probably yes.

You are the perfect candidate for a hybrid piano, pair of high-end monitors, speaker stands, and VSTs. You could get a great setup for less than $15,000 and never look back.


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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
That'll teach me to post from a phone! frown
Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Digital pianos at around $500 (or 500 EUR) are just a small step above toys. They don’t feel like pianos. They don’t sound like pianos. They’re not my culpable year. frown
That's deep ...


CUPPA TEA became CULPABLE YEAR? Thanks a lot, Jobs.


laugh laugh laugh


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Originally Posted by 3am_stargazing

Overall, though, the actions on digital pianos are usually a remarkably good imitation of an acoustic piano. Where they fall vastly short is in the sound quality and the lack of vibrations.


I agree, it's not the action where there is really still alot of room for improvement.

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Originally Posted by JJHLH
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by CyberGene
There are some fantastic restored grands for around €10k. It’s more about having the space for it.


I have the space, but a Grand is too loud in the heart of the city, right?


Probably yes.

You are the perfect candidate for a hybrid piano, pair of high-end monitors, speaker stands, and VSTs. You could get a great setup for less than $15,000 and never look back.




Doesn't that only make sense when MIDI 2.0 is available?

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Enjoy your DP with it’s know limitations. This thread started by acknowledging that lack of escapement makes it a bad thing. Just accept what you cannot change. Even acoustic pianos have problems and the workarounds are problematic. I have the Casio GP-500 and enjoy it more all the time. Yet most people here would never own one, I love mine. But I know it’s limitations and decided to get a full grand, not to replace the Casio, but because I want the acoustic piano experience. Now trying to decide what to get. Bechsteins are very hard to get in my area and a shop in Canada cannot export. I think it’s going to be a Fazioli, as a shop here carries them.


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In the past month and a half, I've played on a whole bunch of instruments - A Steinway B at my old university, some console (old Baldwin and other brands in people's homes) and upright pianos (various Yamaha U models), a Yamaha baby grand, and just about every weighted/graded keyboard at Guitar Center.

I'd say most of them felt like what I'd consider part of the piano spectrum. The main notable exception was this Williams DP whose action was so light that it didn't event seem to be trying to be a piano.

The old Steinway's key action felt heavy and somewhat worn and imprecise in spite of playing spot on in tune (wear and tear vs tuning are not mutually exclusive - it sounded quite good to my ears).

In recent days I've started becoming obsessed with escapement and finding a simulation of that on a DP. But is it really that important or even something you're conscious of while you're performing on a premium concert grand?


Piano feel is quite subjective... it absolutely makes sense to be able to understand your personal target and go after that in an instrument you're buying.

At the same time, consider the realistic "life" of a typical pianist - for most performances/recitals, you'll be playing on an unfamiliar piano in who knows what condition. That's just part of what you sign up for. The feel of the well worn Steinway B I played at school would be very different from a Steinway store.

The only practical alternative is bringing your own portable DP with you to ensure you'll get the familiar feel and sound.

In my mind, it's actual great practice being able to adapt and execute your playing regardless of the instrument.

One other thing I'd note is that from a keyboard action standpoint, my Yamaha DP actually feels quite a bit like the Yamaha pianos I played. I'm not completely shocked (feel-wise) going from my Arius to a U1 to the baby grand.


I think the biggest challenge for DPs is the sound quality - specifically this: I can listen to a recording of a DP and might be convinced it's a real piano. But when I'm actually sitting in front of the DP and playing it, it sounds LIKE a piano sound coming out of a speaker - at no point do I really believe it's an acoustic piano I'm sitting in front of.

The quality of the samples/effects also has an impact, but the direction and general ambiance of the speaker output breaks the illusion of it being an acoustic piano.

That's not to say that I can't enjoy playing my Arius... and get better at playing piano practicing on it as my primary instrument. From a feel standpoint, it definitely feels better than many of the other DPs, university practice upright pianos, most consumer console's I've played in people's homes, and even the Steinway B. And soundwise, it's still better than a lot of the DPs at GC (due to better speakers than many of the cheaper or portable DPs) and most of the ill-maintained console and upright practice room pianos. (there's something to be said for DP's always having perfect intonation and tuning)

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A bad workman always blames his tools.


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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
A bad workman always blames his tools.


A good workman uses the best tools he can get.

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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
A bad workman always blames his tools.


A good workman uses the best tools he can get.

If he can afford them.


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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
A bad workman always blames his tools.


A good workman uses the best tools he can get.

If he can afford them.

Isn’t this a tautology? The best you can get means the best you can afford. So, apparently you already afforded it. Or maybe it’s an English saying that just means “the best” regardless of whether you can actually get it or not?

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/05/20 02:37 PM.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Originally Posted by Colin Miles
A bad workman always blames his tools.


A good workman uses the best tools he can get.

If he can afford them.

Isn’t this a tautology? The best you can get means the best you can afford.


Well, that would apply if you want to get it legally. laugh

Last edited by sleutelbos; 02/05/20 02:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by CyberGene

Isn’t this a tautology? The best you can get means the best you can afford. So, apparently you already afforded it. Or maybe it’s an English saying that just means “the best” regardless of whether you can actually get it or not?


For "the best" available, it would be the best you can get, or one can get if you're trying to sound posh. grin

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You know, every time I read this thread, the action on my P515 gets heavier and heavier . . .


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A number of the roland digital keyboards have actions that include escapement - PHA 4, PHA III, possibly others (PHA = progressive hammer action, I believe). The A-88, RD2000, RD64, and various others all have escapement, and it's not even a particularly new technology for them. I'd be surprised if the top of the line hammer actions from other manufacturers - Yamaha, Korg, Kawai, Fatar and others - don't also have escapement.

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Originally Posted by ideasculptor
A number of the roland digital keyboards have actions that include escapement - PHA 4, PHA III, possibly others (PHA = progressive hammer action, I believe). The A-88, RD2000, RD64, and various others all have escapement, and it's not even a particularly new technology for them. I'd be surprised if the top of the line hammer actions from other manufacturers - Yamaha, Korg, Kawai, Fatar and others - don't also have escapement.


They don't have escapement. They try to emulate it.

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Of course they emulate it. They don't have hammers striking strings and strings aren't actually vibrating a soundboard. Everything is emulated. If that's not acceptable to you fine, don't buy a digital. For me the advantages of a digital far exceeds the cons. Since I live very close to a store that has multiple grand pianos and have played several pianos owned by friends, churches and schools. From experience not all is rosy just because its an actual grand piano. Actions vary greatly by brand, regular or lack of maintenance and age.

Last edited by Kbeaumont; 02/06/20 10:28 AM.

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Actually these rubber things don't even emulate "escapement" per se. They emulate the friction between the jack and the hammer knuckle at tipping point. Which is entirely unnecessary since it doesn't help with anything, especially on a digital piano where there are no strings and playing off the jack isn't a technique that's applicable. I rest my case, escapement in the sense of detaching the hammer from the key at bottom is important, less fatiguing and promotes better control. But that's just an opinion again smile Feel free to disagree or ignore as insignificant even if you agree.

Last edited by CyberGene; 02/06/20 10:34 AM.

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I believe on the FP30 where they emulate the friction of the escapement, they also are emulating the point at which pressing the key does not produce a sound. In this way, if you repeated press the key below the friction sensing point, there is no repeating note sound. In this case, being able to feel the friction is just a feedback mechanism for your nerves to train you to play above that point when playing fast repeating notes.

This is my theory, anyways. Feel free to disagree.


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