2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad) Piano Sight Reading
train piano sight reading with your iPhone or iPad
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Pianoteq
Steinway Spiro Layering
(ad)
Wessell Nickel & Gross
PianoForAll
Who's Online Now
28 members (earlofmar, chopin_r_us, ColonelBogey, Barde, CyberGene, Engelm, drumour, clothearednincompo, 8 invisible), 370 guests, and 553 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 14 of 40 1 2 12 13 14 15 16 39 40
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 356
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 356
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken


Don't draw it into the ridiculous!

I don't speak about a variation of 3!

I speak about 100 to 127 for instance.

Or 1 to 30.


You are not understanding me correctly. MIDI 2.0 will add variations in between these tiny steps. That is what MIDI 2.0 is, and that is why everyone here is telling you that MIDI 2.0 is not useful for pianists. Your issue with 100-127 is, again, not because of MIDI but because of your digital piano. Your complaint has nothing to do with MIDI. It is not related to MIDI. MIDI is not the cause of your problem. Changing the MIDI standard wont fix your issue. If you miss a large part of the MIDI range your digital piano is simply not correctly outputting MIDI.

I cannot possibly explain it any clearer than that.

Last edited by sleutelbos; 02/05/20 12:31 PM.
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken


Don't draw it into the ridiculous!

I don't speak about a variation of 3!

I speak about 100 to 127 for instance.

Or 1 to 30.


You are not understanding me correctly. MIDI 2.0 will add variations in between these tiny steps. That is what MIDI 2.0 is, and that is why everyone here is telling you that MIDI 2.0 is not useful for pianists. Your issue with 100-127 is, again, not because of MIDI but because of your digital piano. Your complaint has nothing to do with MIDI. It is not related to MIDI. MIDI is not the cause of your problem. Changing the MIDI standard wont fix your issue.

I cannot possibly explain it any clearer than that.


You were clear and I already understood. I thought you tried to troll me, lol.
What I was asking, is why no digital piano so far I've tried (Includes high end series of Kawai and Yamaha), can do it as good as what is possible, see e piano competition.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,635
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,635
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
What does this mean?
Quote

Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!
That's not a mechanical problem or a problem with the sensors or the MIDI resolution. It's just a problem of velocity curve shape...
Some DPs with some piano patches are more difficult to control on low velocities. For example, with normal touch settings, the SK-EX piano sound on my CN37 is more difficult to control than the EX piano sound. How to fix the issue? Three alternative solutions:

1) train your fingers to acquire more sensitivity and develop your technique so that you can be more expressive with the default touch settings. It's very difficult, but it's not impossible. But I agree that it could be very stressful.

or

2) set an heavy touch curve (to get more consistent ppp) + a bright voicing (to get fff layers too, despite the heavy touch curve);

or

3) use a customized touch curve, more convex _/ in the first part but normal (or slightly lighter) in the second half, so you can play ppp more easily without sacrificing the fff.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by magicpiano
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
What does this mean?
Quote

Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!
That's not a mechanical problem or a problem with the sensors or the MIDI resolution. It's just a problem of velocity curve shape...
Some DPs with some piano patches are more difficult to control on low velocities. For example, with normal touch settings, the SK-EX piano sound on my CN37 is more difficult to control than the EX piano sound. How to fix the issue? Three alternative solutions:

1) train your fingers to acquire more sensitivity and develop your technique so that you can be more expressive with the default touch settings. It's very difficult, but it's not impossible. But I agree that it could be very stressful.

or

2) set an heavy touch curve (to get more consistent ppp) + a bright voicing (to get fff layers too, despite the heavy touch curve);

or

3) use a customized touch curve, more convex _/ in the first part but normal (or slightly lighter) in the second half, so you can play ppp more easily without sacrificing the fff.



I have tried all three of those things already. Not comparable to the acoustic however... Maybe my RD-2000 is just not to tame in this regard.

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 116
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 116
The perceived dynamic range on a digital piano is dependent on loudness and timbre. Loudness can often be changed, usually more so in a software piano, but timbre is the result of how the piano was sampled. If you're hitting a key at full velocity and it doesn't sound bright enopugh compared to an acoustic, then the piano was probably not sampled at its highest velocities. This is often the case for hardware DPs which lack the velocity layers of a modern software piano. Similarly for pianissimo at low velocities.

Last edited by Smaug; 02/05/20 12:56 PM.
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by Smaug
The perceived dynamic range on a digital piano is dependent on loudness and timbre. Loudness can often be changed, usually more so in a software piano, but timbre is the result of how the piano was sampled. If you're hitting a key at full velocity and it doesn't sound bright enopugh compared to an acoustic, then the piano was probably not sampled at its highest velocities. This is often the case for hardware DPs which lack the velocity layers of a modern software piano. Similarly for pianissimo at low velocities.


But can't to get my RD-2000 to be in harmony with an Software Piano. There are countless ways of making velocity curves, but I don't want to mess with it.
Want it be ready in one go at default.

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,413
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,413
nicknameTaken, this is likely simply by design.

What you're seeking is a somewhat intuitive, but ultimately rejected implementation of velocity sensing. I don't think DP makers are setting as a goal the ability to play all values 1-127. Perhaps it's because the need to account for manufacturing or component tolerances/variances, or are calibrating against some given benchmark (e.g., how to implement variable touch curves), but in the end what ever maker has done is set a range of ppp to fff, which may be 2-100, 20-115, or whatever suits their standard. Whatever range they've chosen, the tone generator is designed to produce the proper velocities for the piano within that range.

It's been the case that there are some velocities that cannot be reached with normal playing, and you have to adjust the touch curve to reach them. This is odd but it does happen, and I can't speak to why such a decision was made.

I do know on my NV-10, with Light or Light+ touch curve, I can hit a low of MIDI velocity 3-5, and a max of 127, and that's why I use Light+ when playing a VST, so I can map as many velocity values as possible to the third party sound engine. But when playing through the built-in sounds, I use normal touch curve, and it feels/sounds just fine to me, even though it maxes out at about 100 playable velocity, that's just what it was designed for.

Really, what you're looking for is a feature of a MIDI controller, and not a digital piano. For example, the VPC-1 has an editor that allows you to set a 1-127 range for the entire instrument, and adjust the upper and lower bounds of that range as well.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 356
S
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
S
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 356
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

What I was asking, is why no digital piano so far I've tried (Includes high end series of Kawai and Yamaha), can do it as good as what is possible, see e piano competition.


That is in part because dynamic markers in sheet music are relative, whereas MIDI velocity is an absolute scale. Velocity 127 means 'as loud as physically possible'. If you play fff you may play very, very loudly but you are not playing as loud as physically possible. So on a scale of 1-127, fff is close to the top, but not all the way. Maybe 110 or 115. 127 would be something incredibly silly, and musically irrelevant.

VSTs work differently. The traditional approach is to link 127 to the loudest possible sample whatever that may be, and 1 to the softest and put everything else in between. So if the piano goes from ppp to fff, fff will be 127. In other words: there is now a mismatch between the DP and the VST: the DP thinks 115 is fff, the VST thinks 127 is fff. When changing velocity curves you can change the shape but also the 'anchor points'. To solve the issue described above we primarily need to change the latter, by telling the VST that when the DP says '115' it actually means '127'.

Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

But can't to get my RD-2000 to be in harmony with an Software Piano. There are countless ways of making velocity curves, but I don't want to mess with it.
Want it be ready in one go at default.


That would depend on the VST, there is no specific one-size-fits-all solution/curve unfortunately. The most important thing is that you set the lowest and highest point correctly, so you get the full range the way you expect it. You can always mess with the shape of the curve between these points as needed.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,635
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,635
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although I'm not a proponent of higher resolutions than 127 and agree the classic MIDI is enough, I'm more than certain the internal engines of all digital pianos measure duration between sensor activations and calculate velocity in a very high internal precision, probably used internally by the sound engine too. It's only when they need to send MIDI that they truncate it to a 7-bit value.
Technically speaking, from what I can see in a block diagram of a typical Kawai DP the keyboard controller sends data directly to the sound chip generator. The MIDI-IN/OUT is managed by a separate processor (called MPU, that I think is for Main Processing Unit) that manages also the user interface options, the lcd panel, the pedals, the USB and the Bluetooth. So, it's possible that the data from the keyboard controller have an higher resolution, but that depends from the bus width between the keyboard controller and the sound chip. If it's an 8-bit bus, then the resolution should be that of the MIDI 1.0 standard. Unfortunately, from the block diagram I cannot see how large is the data bus between the keyboard controller and the sound chip.

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,481
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,481
Let's not forget that most keyboards measure velocity based on the time it takes for a key to trigger two sequential/staggered rubber contact switches.

Just how much precision can we expect from such an arrangement?

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,034
N
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
N
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,034
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Simple ... just press gently and you get ppp. Press forcefully and you get fff.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...
If your piano cannot oblige it's the fault of the piano. MIDI has nothing at all to do with that.


I see. Then the RD-2000 can't do that. It wasn't as big as an issue on the hybrids I checked on so far, but none of them could reach close to the max value of midi.
The Yamaha CLP 695 for instance had a bump at around 105 to 127, instead of being able to hit inbetween.
The Kawai CA78 did not hit higher than 112.

What do you mean? I actually reached 127 very easily on CA98 on standard settings, had to change keyboard touch to heavy, but even on heavy I can still reach 127 pretty easy. CA78 shouldn't be different in that regard.

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,481
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,481
My Clav won't go above 110. Maybe it would if I used the hammer of Thor. But not otherwise.
Maybe if I put it on "light" instead of "medium"?
But it doesn't really matter. Not at all. With a VST and a velocity curve app I can do it all.
Originally Posted by Nordomus
I actually reached 127 very easily on CA98 on standard settings, had to change keyboard touch to heavy, but even on heavy I can still reach 127 pretty easy. CA78 shouldn't be different in that regard.

Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,635
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 1,635
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Let's not forget that most keyboards measure velocity based on the time it takes for a key to trigger two sequential/staggered rubber contact switches.

Just how much precision can we expect from such an arrangement?

With a keyboard controller working at 1MHz, you could get a precision of about 0.000001 seconds between the triggering of a sensor and the next one. I think the sensitivity in our fingers between a forte and what for us is a slightly higher velocity is in the order of a few tenths of a second.

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,481
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,481
The limitation is not in the electronics. It's in the rubber!

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
The limitation is not in the electronics. It's in the rubber!


Thats only for SLABS, right? Hybrids don't use rubber contacts, do they?

Speaking of which - Lachnit makes non-rubber slabs. But they have their own issues. They use a modified FATAR TP40W, they are probably too light (assuming)
I come from a RD-2000, and want (a little tiny tad) more weight on the keys.

Which brings me back - should I not get a grand piano, and retrofit (Silent System) and have a better overall feel? Or does it not compare?

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 02/05/20 03:23 PM.
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,413
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,413
FYI, "slab" means portable (or stage) piano. Console/furniture DPs like the Yamaha Clavinova, Kawai CA or Roland LX series are not slabs, nor are they hybrids.

But virtually every digital piano (including anything with a FATAR action) that is NOT a hybrid has rubber dome contacts. Hybrids use non-contact optical sensors.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by Gombessa
FYI, "slab" means portable (or stage) piano. Console/furniture DPs like the Yamaha Clavinova, Kawai CA or Roland LX series are not slabs, nor are they hybrids.

But virtually every digital piano (including anything with a FATAR action) that is NOT a hybrid has rubber dome contacts. Hybrids use non-contact optical sensors.


Uhm, Lachnit has modified it, they use light sensor technique, no more rubber domes.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Gombessa
FYI, "slab" means portable (or stage) piano. Console/furniture DPs like the Yamaha Clavinova, Kawai CA or Roland LX series are not slabs, nor are they hybrids.

But virtually every digital piano (including anything with a FATAR action) that is NOT a hybrid has rubber dome contacts. Hybrids use non-contact optical sensors.


Uhm, Lachnit has modified it, they use light sensor technique, no more rubber domes.


iirc... they claim they don't use it. Don't nail me on it.

Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
N
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
N
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 391
Originally Posted by Nordomus
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Simple ... just press gently and you get ppp. Press forcefully and you get fff.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...
If your piano cannot oblige it's the fault of the piano. MIDI has nothing at all to do with that.


I see. Then the RD-2000 can't do that. It wasn't as big as an issue on the hybrids I checked on so far, but none of them could reach close to the max value of midi.
The Yamaha CLP 695 for instance had a bump at around 105 to 127, instead of being able to hit inbetween.
The Kawai CA78 did not hit higher than 112.

What do you mean? I actually reached 127 very easily on CA98 on standard settings, had to change keyboard touch to heavy, but even on heavy I can still reach 127 pretty easy. CA78 shouldn't be different in that regard.


Apparently, playing with much force doesn't translate to 127. But much velocity does. Had the keys a better action I may be able to accelerate it better. But like this I must really repeatedly struck them fast and with low amount of force to get this value.

Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,413
G
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
G
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 5,413
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

iirc... they claim they don't use it. Don't nail me on it.


Fair enough. There are a lot of one-off custom builds out there (including hybrids that don't use optical sensors) so you can expect an exception to every rule. The point is just that rubber dome sensors have nothing to do with a piano being a slab (nor is it at all limited to slabs), it's simply the de facto technology implementation for nearly all digital pianos regardless of form factor (including cabinet/console models).


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Page 14 of 40 1 2 12 13 14 15 16 39 40

Moderated by  Piano World 

Link Copied to Clipboard
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
(ad)
Couch to Concert Hall
Couch to Concert Hall
(ad)
PianoDisc

PianoDisc
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad)
Mason & Hamlin Pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Garritan CFX hiss fix ?
by Barde - 05/09/21 04:15 AM
We remember and honor our heroes
by Maximillyan - 05/08/21 11:27 PM
Playing with others for Senior Recital
by suzukiparent - 05/08/21 11:09 PM
Surprise under 80 years of dust
by TimM_980 - 05/08/21 07:38 PM
Hands-on NV5, CA99, K200 ATX3, and NU1x.
by total_beginner - 05/08/21 05:49 PM
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
Forum Statistics
Forums42
Topics206,806
Posts3,091,370
Members101,455
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers

Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | MapleStreetMusicShop.com - Our store in Cornish Maine


© copyright 1997 - 2021 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5