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Well whuzzup hybrid fans. It seems that Kawai wants to call the CA99 a hybrid:
https://kawaius.com/product/ca99/
A new contemporary cabinet design, along with an updated LCD touchscreen and authentic new piano sounds contribute to why the CA99 is a stand-out among hybrid digital pianos.

So now "hybrid" means nothing at all. Or it means anything at all. Like "organic" foods.

Or ... perhaps that's just a weasel-worded statement. As in: The CA99 is NOT a hybrid, but it "stands out" (whatever that means) among the hybrids.

Take your pick.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
More isn't better. It's enough to have 127 velocity levels. Can your ears hear more than that? Nope.

How about the pedal? Mine has six levels. MIDI allows 127, but six is enough. Many VSTs won't even support six, let along 127. And never mind billions.

McDonald's has sold billions of hamburgers. But I've eaten only a few.

More is not necessarily better. Don't be blinded by the numbers.


It's more about letting the digital feel more analog. A acoustic piano has no stepped dynamic, like in digital. It's continous, which makes it so great!
You never run out of expression.

I have really difficulty doing ppp to fff on digitals!

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 02/05/20 11:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Well whuzzup hybrid fans. It seems that Kawai wants to call the CA99 a hybrid:
https://kawaius.com/product/ca99/
A new contemporary cabinet design, along with an updated LCD touchscreen and authentic new piano sounds contribute to why the CA99 is a stand-out among hybrid digital pianos.

So now "hybrid" means nothing at all. Or it means anything at all. Like "organic" foods.

Or ... perhaps that's just a weasel-worded statement. As in: The CA99 is NOT a hybrid, but it "stands out" (whatever that means) among the hybrids.

Take your pick.


They have been doing that with earlier models as well. Kawai seems to define hybrid not based on action but on whether there is a soundboard speaker. So the CA79 is not a hybrid, but not due to the action but due to the missing soundboard speaker, and the NV10 is a hybrid but again for different reasons than one might expect.

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Hybrid digital pianos are AvantGrand and Novus. The term was first used by Yamaha for their GranTouch pianos (predecessors to AG) and whether it's semantically correct or not, it means a digital piano with an action borrowed from an acoustic piano.

Why Casio and Kawai want to market some of their pianos as hybrid when the action is not one borrowed from an acoustic grand (or having the same principle with escapement, etc.) is another story.


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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
More isn't better. It's enough to have 127 velocity levels. Can your ears hear more than that? Nope.

How about the pedal? Mine has six levels. MIDI allows 127, but six is enough. Many VSTs won't even support six, let along 127. And never mind billions.

McDonald's has sold billions of hamburgers. But I've eaten only a few.

More is not necessarily better. Don't be blinded by the numbers.


It's more about letting the digital feel more analog. A acoustic piano has no stepped dynamic, like in digital. It's continous, which makes it so great!
You never run out of expression.

I have really difficulty doing ppp to fff on digitals!


I am 100% convinced that you cannot do a run of 127 notes with each note having a velocity of +1 compared to the previous note. In other words, your 'natural variance' is higher than the smallest step MIDI 1.1 provides. As such a higher velocity resolution won't change much.

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Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
More isn't better. It's enough to have 127 velocity levels. Can your ears hear more than that? Nope.

How about the pedal? Mine has six levels. MIDI allows 127, but six is enough. Many VSTs won't even support six, let along 127. And never mind billions.

McDonald's has sold billions of hamburgers. But I've eaten only a few.

More is not necessarily better. Don't be blinded by the numbers.


It's more about letting the digital feel more analog. A acoustic piano has no stepped dynamic, like in digital. It's continous, which makes it so great!
You never run out of expression.

I have really difficulty doing ppp to fff on digitals!


I am 100% convinced that you cannot do a run of 127 notes with each note having a velocity of +1 compared to the previous note. In other words, your 'natural variance' is higher than the smallest step MIDI 1.1 provides. As such a higher velocity resolution won't change much.



The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 02/05/20 11:48 AM.
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Look at this: http://www.piano-e-competition.com/midi_2011.asp

It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
Specifically, http://www.piano-e-competition.com/MIDIFiles/2011/Chon08.MID great midi variation even at old standards

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 02/05/20 11:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!


But that has nothing to do with the MIDI standard. If a digital piano already cannot output the full MIDI range of 1-127, then increase the resolution of the MIDI standard won't change a thing.

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What is the problem, why can't we have this variation / dynamic in any digital piano?


'These performances are best enjoyed when reproduced by a Disklavier PRO using MIDI files that were recorded with the high resolution XP data. However, these performances are also offered in Standard MIDI File format for playback on non-PRO Disklavier pianos and other high quality digital instruments as well as in the legacy E-SEQ format for playback on early model Disklaviers.
'

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Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!


But that has nothing to do with the MIDI standard. If a digital piano already cannot output the full MIDI range of 1-127, then increase the resolution of the MIDI standard won't change a thing.


Yea, but I can't get this variation as posted in any digital piano I have tested so far... Why can this Yamaha Disklavier do it and others can't?

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 02/05/20 12:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken

The problem is that you can't play ppp and then switch to fff.
Why is that? Because the resolution/sensors is not fine enough to get nuances between them.
I'm NOT arguing about playing exact 127 'notes', but being able to play ppp and fff and anything between.

Many digitals have the problem, that you can't reach the whole spectrum AT ALL. Not even at will.
You can change the key touch, but this messes with the timbre, and you will have a problem playing ppp then, if you adjust the key touch to be able to play fff!


But that has nothing to do with the MIDI standard. If a digital piano already cannot output the full MIDI range of 1-127, then increase the resolution of the MIDI standard won't change a thing.

Although I'm not a proponent of higher resolutions than 127 and agree the classic MIDI is enough, I'm more than certain the internal engines of all digital pianos measure duration between sensor activations and calculate velocity in a very high internal precision, probably used internally by the sound engine too. It's only when they need to send MIDI that they truncate it to a 7-bit value.


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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Yea, but I can't get this variation as posted in any digital piano I have tested so far... Why can this Yamaha Disklavier do it and others can't?


I just checked on my trusty old P140:

[Linked Image]

This is with 'normal touch setting'. There can be all sorts of reasons why another DP may not be able to do this, but again, that is not because of the MIDI standard itself. A higher resolution would allow you to play steps between the min-max, it doesn't change the min-max itself.

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Exactly. It has nothing to do with MIDI.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
But every variation cannot be heard. So what's the point?

127 levels over a range of, say, 50 dB is around 0.4 dB per level.
The ear can barely distinguish 1 dB, though some people claim the abilty to hear 1/2 dB.
So 127 is quite enough.

If you can't hear the difference then there is no difference. Don't be fooled by big numbers and flashy claims.

MIDI 2 has a place in the production studio. But for the performer it offers nothing.

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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Although I'm not a proponent of higher resolutions than 127 and agree the classic MIDI is enough, I'm more than certain the internal engines of all digital pianos measure duration between sensor activations and calculate velocity in a very high internal precision, probably used internally by the sound engine too. It's only when they need to send MIDI that they truncate it to a 7-bit value.


Sure, but that isn't related to nicknameTaken's issue of DPs not being able to hit both min and max values with the same touch setting. Increased resolution merely increases the steps in between these two values.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. It has nothing to do with MIDI.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
But every variation cannot be heard. So what's the point?

127 levels over a range of, say, 50 dB is around 0.4 dB per level.
The ear can barely distinguish 1 dB, though some people claim the abilty to hear 1/2 dB.
So 127 is quite enough.

If you can't hear the difference then there is no difference. Don't be fooled by big numbers and flashy claims.

MIDI 2 has a place in the production studio. But for the performer it offers nothing.


Change of midi level changes timbre.
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...

On my digital, I could only hold a midi level of 95 in average, there is a lot missing imo.

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Simple ... just press gently and you get ppp. Press forcefully and you get fff.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...
If your piano cannot oblige it's the fault of the piano. MIDI has nothing at all to do with that.

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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
On my digital, I could only hold a midi level of 95 in average, there is a lot missing imo.


If your digital piano cannot output the full range, get a better digital piano. It isn't the fault of MIDI

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Simple ... just press gently and you get ppp. Press forcefully and you get fff.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
What if I want to knowingly want to play in the muffled timbre ( ppp), and then in the really bright timbre (fff) ? Depending on the piano...
If your piano cannot oblige it's the fault of the piano. MIDI has nothing at all to do with that.


I see. Then the RD-2000 can't do that. It wasn't as big as an issue on the hybrids I checked on so far, but none of them could reach close to the max value of midi.
The Yamaha CLP 695 for instance had a bump at around 105 to 127, instead of being able to hit inbetween.
The Kawai CA78 did not hit higher than 112.

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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. It has nothing to do with MIDI.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
But every variation cannot be heard. So what's the point?

127 levels over a range of, say, 50 dB is around 0.4 dB per level.
The ear can barely distinguish 1 dB, though some people claim the abilty to hear 1/2 dB.
So 127 is quite enough.

If you can't hear the difference then there is no difference. Don't be fooled by big numbers and flashy claims.

MIDI 2 has a place in the production studio. But for the performer it offers nothing.


To expand on that: here is a recording of four notes, with velocity ranging between 70-73. Anyone wants to guess which note has which velocity? Anyone here thinks we really need a few dozen or hundred more steps in between these values?

https://sndup.net/7xmc/test+velocity.wav

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Originally Posted by sleutelbos
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Exactly. It has nothing to do with MIDI.
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It's known for long time now, that the advanced Yamaha XP MIDI is capable of doing way better.
In less than a minute, from 1 to 127, every variation can be hit!
But every variation cannot be heard. So what's the point?

127 levels over a range of, say, 50 dB is around 0.4 dB per level.
The ear can barely distinguish 1 dB, though some people claim the abilty to hear 1/2 dB.
So 127 is quite enough.

If you can't hear the difference then there is no difference. Don't be fooled by big numbers and flashy claims.

MIDI 2 has a place in the production studio. But for the performer it offers nothing.


To expand on that: here is a recording of four notes, with velocity ranging between 70-73. Anyone wants to guess which note has which velocity? Anyone here thinks we really need a few dozen or hundred more steps in between these values?

https://sndup.net/7xmc/test+velocity.wav


Don't draw it into the ridiculous!

I don't speak about a variation of 3!

I speak about 100 to 127 for instance.

Or 1 to 30.

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