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Estonia Pianos
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Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Beemer
Here is a web page showing the MSRP of all the Blüthner Models with other pages showing all the other Tier 1 brands.
https://pianopricepoint.com/bluthner-piano/
Ian
But you should never use MSRP for anything, especially trying to figure out what is a reasonable price to pay for a piano.


Very true. There are some some piano makers or some piano models where MSRP is the same as SMP, which makes things tougher to figure out what a reasonable offer should be.

You work from that given SMP ,especially if it is the marked price in the dealer .In many brands the
difference between MSRP and SMP is not much different.
Why this discussion has suddenly focused on price is confusing ?

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Beemer
Here is a web page showing the MSRP of all the Blüthner Models with other pages showing all the other Tier 1 brands.
https://pianopricepoint.com/bluthner-piano/
Ian
But you should never use MSRP for anything, especially trying to figure out what is a reasonable price to pay for a piano.


Very true. There are some some piano makers or some piano models where MSRP is the same as SMP, which makes things tougher to figure out what a reasonable offer should be.

You work from that given SMP ,especially if it is the marked price in the dealer .In many brands the
difference between MSRP and SMP is not much different.
Why this discussion has suddenly focused on price is confusing ?


It is my observation that conversations like this always come back to price, it’s natural. People are always trying to assign a number to a thing.

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This is actually a snobbish turn to the thread Larry, I shall have to quote the
SMP of my piano just now to make sure I am not outdone ???
(the neurotic side of PW )

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
This is actually a snobbish turn to the thread Larry, I shall have to quote the
SMP of my piano just now to make sure I am not outdone ???
(the neurotic side of PW )


I prefer not to discuss prices and feel that the price is a private matter between buyer and seller.

Anyway, prices are not that interesting. Quality of workmanship, tone, and features, those things are more interesting.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/07/20 12:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
This is actually a snobbish turn to the thread Larry, I shall have to quote the
SMP of my piano just now to make sure I am not outdone ???
(the neurotic side of PW )


I prefer not to discuss prices and feel that the price is a private matter between buyer and seller.

Anyway, prices are not that interesting. Quality of workmanship, and features, are more interesting.


Your position doesn’t make sense to me. Didn’t You say that higher priced Pianos are always the best? If that is true then prices need to be disclosed.


"Music, rich, full of feeling, not soulless, is like a crystal on which the sun falls and brings forth from it a whole rainbow" - F. Chopin
"I never dreamt with my own two hands I could touch the sky" - Sappho

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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
This is actually a snobbish turn to the thread Larry, I shall have to quote the
SMP of my piano just now to make sure I am not outdone ???
(the neurotic side of PW )


I prefer not to discuss prices and feel that the price is a private matter between buyer and seller.

Anyway, prices are not that interesting. Quality of workmanship, and features, are more interesting.


Your position doesn’t make sense to me. Didn’t You say that higher priced Pianos are always the best? If that is true then prices need to be disclosed.


I said that higher prices pianos are often better than cheaper pianos. Is this any surprise?

Higher priced pianos have more labor hours assigned to them, in terms of voicing, and they tend to have better actions, better wire and hammer felts, and better cabinet construction.

I don’t care if prices are disclosed, I just don’t find the discussion of prices to be particularly interesting. Thankfully, we’re not in the digital piano forum, where every $100 increment in price is hotly discussed.

Last edited by LarryK; 01/07/20 01:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by LarryK
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
This is actually a snobbish turn to the thread Larry, I shall have to quote the
SMP of my piano just now to make sure I am not outdone ???
(the neurotic side of PW )


I prefer not to discuss prices and feel that the price is a private matter between buyer and seller.

Anyway, prices are not that interesting. Quality of workmanship, and features, are more interesting.


Your position doesn’t make sense to me. Didn’t You say that higher priced Pianos are always the best? If that is true then prices need to be disclosed.

OK well the SMP. price on.the website quoted by Beemer is the only lowest of the 130 Sauter models ! The others range from almost $40,000 upwards.(Brand Profiles )
But no one is buying yet ???

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Quote

Blüthner model B* (52”) $32,500
Blüthner model S (57.5”) $43,450
Bösendorfer 130 (52”) $48,180
Bechstein Concert 8 (51.1”) $44,550
August Förster 125 F* (49”) $22,820
August Förster 134 K (53”) $35,000
Grotrian Concertino (52”) $32,900
Steinway & Sons K-52 (52”) $40,000
Mason & Hamlin model 50 (50”) $18,200
Sauter Master Class 130 (51”) $37,100
Schimmel K132 (52”) $26,790
Steingraeber & Sohne 138K (54”) $43,200

The Yamaha SU7 was designed to be of the quality of premium European pianos for the European market. It is now marketed in N. America as well. It is in the price and quality range of the above. (I would prefer it to at least two of the listed pianos). List is about $43K, street price is about $28K.

I have no idea what this about ?

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Just pointing out that it is a piano that could be added to the list.


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Quote

What’s interesting is the price disparity with nearly $30,000 difference between the least expensive upright on the list and the most. August Förster and Mason and Hamlin seems to offer the best value, while Blüthner and Bösendorfer offers pianos of exquisite materials and workmanship that, while there are many fine piano makers, are unmatched in their distinctive designs and impeccable quality.

I think there are some features that distinguish some pianos on the list in terms of design (does not mean they are preferred instruments):

Bluthner: sympathetic resonance of 4th aliquot string
Mason & Hamlin: tension resonator, full-width music rest
Bosendorfer: inner case resonance sleeve, not just soundboard resonance
Sauter, Steingraeber: features to improve action repetition speed
Steinway: full-width music rest

There may be others, eg many have full sostenuto pedal, but probably not all


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The SU7 How does it compare to the YUS5 which is also a really nice piano ?

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Originally Posted by Sweelinck

I think there are some features that distinguish some pianos on the list in terms of design (does not mean they are preferred instruments):

Bluthner: sympathetic resonance of 4th aliquot string
Mason & Hamlin: tension resonator, full-width music rest
Bosendorfer: inner case resonance sleeve, not just soundboard resonance
Sauter, Steingraeber: features to improve action repetition speed
Steinway: full-width music rest
For me all of those are insignificant compared to personal preference about touch and tone.

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Sweelinck, Since I’m shopping for an upright, some of the features you mentioned are only implemented on the grand pianos. The Blüthner Aliquot system is not employed in their verticals or their smaller grands. The tension resonator IS used on Mason and Hamlin’s only current model upright. As for the Bösendorfer’s spruce resonating rim/case, I’m actually not sure if that extends to their uprights.

As a special note to all those who praised Grotrian uprights, I tend to agree. I’ve heard a Grotrian be played but never played them ( I wasn’t shopping for an upright at the time). So while I can’t comment from personal experience on the touch of the piano, I certainly can say that listening to them was always a pleasure. They have a decidedly European sound. Clear, not too bright but not too dark. Simply a lovely sound. However I wasn’t equally impressed with the fit and finish of the piano, mainly in the interior. I couldn’t help but notice the less ornate and dull sheen of the plate and the agraffe bar instead of individual agraffes. I’m not saying that would necessarily be a deal breaker, it’s just that in that price range, I expected it to look a little better “under the hood”.

As for the price debate, IMHO I believe in being educated on price. Pianos buyers should be willing to share actual prices paid in public forums so that perhaps other potential buyers don’t overpay. For many buyers, not knowing that an additional substantial discount on a certain instrument could mean the difference between getting a piano he/she likes or getting one he/she LOVES!

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Originally Posted by Bluthendorfer
[...] Pianos buyers should be willing to share actual prices paid in public forums so that perhaps other potential buyers don’t overpay. For many buyers, not knowing that an additional substantial discount on a certain instrument could mean the difference between getting a piano he/she likes or getting one he/she LOVES!


While I don't disagree in principle with what is written here, there is a caveat to be considered that sometimes makes price comparisons problematic: that is that prices can vary widely within a given country depending upon the local markets. So, while someone in XYZ state gets a good local price of $15,000.00, another buying the same model in ABC state may get an equally good local price of $17,000.00.

Local market conditions, dealer incentives, and dealer over- or under-stock may contribute to widely varying prices from region to region, yet all may be considered "good" for the local market.

Regards,


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@pianoloverus: I agree. Some of those features affect touch and tone, however. The tension resonator will likely help the piano stay consistent in tone over time for instance.

@Ladybird: The SU7 is a handcrafted piano. I’ve only played one SU7 and I’ve YUS5, so this is not necessarily representative, but Yamaha uprights I’ve played other than the SU7 have tended to be a tad bright for my taste. This may just be a clicking issue with the prep that was or wasn’t done in the YUS5 I tried,

I think Bosendorfer claims on their web site that the model 130 has the resonant encasement.


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Typo correction:

The SU7 is a handcrafted piano. I’ve only played one SU7 and I’ve one YUS5, so this is not necessarily representative, but Yamaha uprights I’ve played other than the SU7 have tended to be a tad bright for my taste. This may just be a clicking prepping issue with the prep that was or wasn’t done in the YUS5 I tried.


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Originally Posted by Sweelinck
Typo correction:

The SU7 is a handcrafted piano. I’ve only played one SU7 and I’ve one YUS5, so this is not necessarily representative, but Yamaha uprights I’ve played other than the SU7 have tended to be a tad bright for my taste. This may just be a clicking prepping issue with the prep that was or wasn’t done in the YUS5 I tried.

Thank you , I understand ! The YUS5 I tried was very nice ,but I can understand that the SU7 must be
quite wonderful !

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Kawai makes a 53" tall upright call the K800, this piano has been under continuous refinements for decades and the new K800s are excellent instruments. The combination of technology and a long curve of development make this upright in my opinion among the top 5 in the market.


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Originally Posted by Bluthendorfer
=====SNIP====

Speaking of which, my research has uncovered the likely approximate selling (not MSRP) prices of many well respected uprights. Of course, these prices may be a bit more or less depending on circumstances. But I believe this is a credible general guide to selling prices:
=====SNIP====

Bechstein Concert 8 (51.1”) $44,550

=======SNIP=====


The $44,550 price is congruent with what I was told by a rep at Faust Harrison in NYC. Caveat: I believe this is only for the "satin black" case (not that any C. Bechstein satin black case isn't gorgeous). The same rep informed me that any of the veneered ones will run more, some over twice as much depending on the choice of materials.


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Originally Posted by Seeker
Originally Posted by Bluthendorfer
=====SNIP====

Speaking of which, my research has uncovered the likely approximate selling (not MSRP) prices of many well respected uprights. Of course, these prices may be a bit more or less depending on circumstances. But I believe this is a credible general guide to selling prices:
=====SNIP====

Bechstein Concert 8 (51.1”) $44,550

=======SNIP=====


The $44,550 price is congruent with what I was told by a rep at Faust Harrison in NYC. Caveat: I believe this is only for the "satin black" case (not that any C. Bechstein satin black case isn't gorgeous). The same rep informed me that any of the veneered ones will run more, some over twice as much depending on the choice of materials.


Oh the cost of outer beauty to match the inner beauty is just so high, heavy sigh. Although satin black does look stately. frown


J & J
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Casio Privia PX-330
My piano’s voice is beautiful!
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